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Transit City: Finch-Sheppard Corridor

One of the most absurd concepts in all of these TTC studies is that little chart with appropriate technologies for the demand, and then these uniform "demand" numbers that they put out. It's ridiculous because obviously demand is going to be much higher for a fast, reliable, fully-grade-separated system than for a streetcar that stops at every traffic light. Vancouver did the study for its Evergreen Line out to Coquitlam, and found that while using Skytrain/RT technology would be slightly more expensive, it would close to double the ridership due to the faster trip offered.
 
^Living in Ottawa, I've come to realize how relative transit needs are.... While Torontonians complain about anything less than a subway, here in Ottawa people find the O-train (a little bigger than the SRT) to be the height of luxury. That's why I wonder how effective TC lines will be.....Are many potential riders still going to hold for a subway along some of those routes (Sheppard, Eglinton, etc.)?
 
Why shouldn't Torontonians want subways in some places? We'd be more than happy with new LRT lines along routes like McCowan or Lawrence or Kipling or Wilson or a dozen others.
 
Why shouldn't Torontonians want subways in some places? We'd be more than happy with new LRT lines along routes like McCowan or Lawrence or Kipling or Wilson or a dozen others.

I am not saying Torontonians don't need or shouldn't want subways. My point was, that it's possible that the threshold for transit loyalty seems to increase when subways are thrown into the mix.
 
Well, of course such a threshold will increase along a corridor like Sheppard, where an unfinished subway line lies waiting to be finished, or along Eglinton, where a subway was started and aborted.

Had Transfer City chosen lines based on where LRT is an appropriate way to improve service, I'm sure people along Lawrence or Wilson/Albion or Kipling or McCowan would be overjoyed with the better service it would offer and would not hold out for subways. Instead, unfortunately, Transfer City went out of its way to target every reasonable subway corridor in the city (except downtown, which was ignored).
 
First, converting the subway would not require that it be fully shut down,

Second, Back when the TTC was busy conning everyone that a sheppard subway was necessary, they put out a demand model that showed long term peak demand at young(for a completed line) at only 13,500 per hour. This model was flawed because it sucked every east west rider between steeles and eglinton on to sheppard. 13,500 per hour is still within the capacity of a grade separated LRT line. Considering that all riders from eglinton to steeles will not switch to sheppard, even if it were a full subway line, it would be safe to assume that ridership will not get that high. Therefor, LRT is more than enough to handle future ridership.

and I doubt that 3000 per hour are already using sheppard east buses, show me the service numbers for those routes. The TTC would need a bus every minute to handle that load
 
First, converting the subway would not require that it be fully shut down

I'm not sure where you're getting this claim, but completely rebuilding platforms at a lower level, rebuilding tracks, and modifying tunnels to add catenary would most certainly require a long full shutdown of the subway.

I just can't fathom how somebody who considers themselves to be a transit advocate could support, with a straight face, a long term shutdown of a busy subway line, so that it can be replaced at great cost with a lower capacity, lower-quality system. I also can't understand why transit "advocates" think that it's a good idea to relentlessly attack a major transit investment as a failure. Do they seriously believe that it will inspire more transit investment in the future? It's all the more galling because it's completely untrue. Compare Sheppard to Chicago's Green Line. Sheppard moves 48,000 people a day and is growing every year, despite being only half-built to its primary destination. The Green Line moves fewer than 40,000 per day even though it is five times as long as Sheppard. I can assure you that Chicago transit "advocates" don't go around calling the Green Line a failure and suggesting that it be torn up and replaced with a lower-capacity system.
 
Voltz, as we're seeing with Eglinton, a fully grade-separated LRT would cost over $200M per km...why would you spend practically the entire cost of a subway line only to get half the capacity and no room for future growth? Any line built to be overcrowded from day 1 is a failure, as an LRT along Sheppard would be if ridership climbed to over 13,000 per hour (and any ridership projections that predate the current official plan and the recent condo boom are inherently flawed).

If the subway had never been built along Sheppard, the technology debate would be much more consequential, but the subway already exists and travel patterns and development has begun responding to its existence. Ridership on the 190 is already 4 times higher than originally projected, and growing. I didn't say the 85+190 moves 3000 per hour, I said "the better part" of 3000...maybe it's below 2000, I don't know, as such figures are not released and would have to be guessed (keeping in mind that riders are continuously left behind on the platform for both routes during the pm rush).
 
I just can't fathom how somebody who considers themselves to be a transit advocate could support, with a straight face, a long term shutdown of a busy subway line, so that it can be replaced at great cost with a lower capacity, lower-quality system. I also can't understand why transit "advocates" think that it's a good idea to relentlessly attack a major transit investment as a failure. Do they seriously believe that it will inspire more transit investment in the future? It's all the more galling because it's completely untrue. Compare Sheppard to Chicago's Green Line. Sheppard moves 48,000 people a day and is growing every year, despite being only half-built to its primary destination. The Green Line moves fewer than 40,000 per day even though it is five times as long as Sheppard. I can assure you that Chicago transit "advocates" don't go around calling the Green Line a failure and suggesting that it be torn up and replaced with a lower-capacity system.

It reminds me of Ottawa, where transit 'advocates' opposed upgrading the O-Train, a diesel line with trains meant for long distance travel that had limited frequencies (15-20 min max), to a frequent dual-tracked electric light rail line... they got a lot of media coverage despite some of their absurd claims and ideas. Now every time a new transit plan comes out they are against it, instead calling for more diesel lines, building passing tracks... Building a better and comprehensive system is not the priority, it seems like promoting their favourite technology is.
 
It reminds me of Ottawa, where transit 'advocates' opposed upgrading the O-Train, a diesel line with trains meant for long distance travel that had limited frequencies (15-20 min max), to a frequent dual-tracked electric light rail line... they got a lot of media coverage despite some of their absurd claims and ideas. Now every time a new transit plan comes out they are against it, instead calling for more diesel lines, building passing tracks... Building a better and comprehensive system is not the priority, it seems like promoting their favourite technology is.

While many of your points are true, the opposition to the plan was based on several factors. Many Ottawa residents were opposed to running the new LRT on the surface streets through downtown. More importantly the N-S line would have catered to areas which by the city's own admission had poor ridership and very little potential for growth in ridership, while traffic from the E-W was on its way to overwhelming the system and was already causing significant bunching at nodes like Hurdman and throughout downtown. Lastly, people here have a very poor understanding of what LRT is. Because the O-Train is referred to as LRT, people picture a diesel mini-HRT running on a surface street in downtown Ottawa. That's what caused all the opposition. Thankfully, since then that ridiculous plan has been scrapped and they are now moving on to an actual long term plan to build transit.
 
Can anybody work out rough costs for these options? It would be helpful to break it down by segment.
1)How much would it cost to extend the subway to Agincourt?
2) How much to extend in the west to Downsview?
3) How much to extend the Finch LRT to just Seneca?
4) How much to connect from there to Consumers/Sheppard?
5) How much to convert the Sheppard subway to LRT?

To me, it would seem based on cost restrictions, the most sensible thing would be to extend the Finch LRT to Seneca. No need to connect it to Sheppard. And convert the Sheppard line to LRT and extend in both directions from Downswview to at least Agincourt or if it's affordable to STC. If there's no money to finish the Sheppard subway, that would seem to me to be the best course of action.
 
While many of your points are true, the opposition to the plan was based on several factors. Many Ottawa residents were opposed to running the new LRT on the surface streets through downtown. More importantly the N-S line would have catered to areas which by the city's own admission had poor ridership and very little potential for growth in ridership, while traffic from the E-W was on its way to overwhelming the system and was already causing significant bunching at nodes like Hurdman and throughout downtown. Lastly, people here have a very poor understanding of what LRT is. Because the O-Train is referred to as LRT, people picture a diesel mini-HRT running on a surface street in downtown Ottawa. That's what caused all the opposition. Thankfully, since then that ridiculous plan has been scrapped and they are now moving on to an actual long term plan to build transit.

Yeah Friends of the O-Train wasn't the only factor, but it was an important one for public opinion about the line. The ridership would have been one of the better LRT lines in NA.... 62k per day at full buildout. There were several new developments that were announced because of its construction (and cancelled/put on hold when the line was scrapped). Lots of room in the Bayview/Gladstone/Somerset areas for redevelopment. They are still building the NS line with the new plan though, potentially as phase 1. It was an expensive mistake to scrap it, although it's nice that the downtown part is being fixed.
 
Yeah Friends of the O-Train wasn't the only factor, but it was an important one for public opinion about the line. The ridership would have been one of the better LRT lines in NA.... 62k per day at full buildout. There were several new developments that were announced because of its construction (and cancelled/put on hold when the line was scrapped). Lots of room in the Bayview/Gladstone/Somerset areas for redevelopment. They are still building the NS line with the new plan though, potentially as phase 1. It was an expensive mistake to scrap it, although it's nice that the downtown part is being fixed.

Yeah I attended all the consultations on the new plan. Most residents are very supportive of an E-W line. And the city did the right thing by demanding a tunnel through downtown this time. It's sad they canceled the old plan but it had gotten ridiculous anyway without the tunnel and possibly a continuation of diesel locomotives. And there were significant liabilities as well, since the city would have had to pay for a new yard and removal of contaminated soil along the track. I like the new phased plan better where the rail lines for E-W come in first and the lines for N-S come in after Riverside South is developed....which is what the line was meant for anyway. The are finally doing the sensible thing and converting the Transitway to LRT, which should have been the plan all along instead of creating new corridors (the E-W corridor in the old plan was to be a completely new corridor much further south than the current transitway) which service nobody and would largely be dot connectors.
 
It would likely be possible to convert the subway with out shutting it down, by first using one track for the subway between bayview and don mills while the other side is converted, then having a cross platform transfer at Bessarion, then cut the subway back to bayview, and so on until finished. I am assuming that they would just raise the tracks to platform height at stations, and since LRT and subway tracks are the same, the tracks in the tunnels would not need to be modified.

Im not suggesting this because its my favorite type of transit vehicle, but because it would provide better service, since I don't see the sheppard line being extended for a very long time, if ever. If it does happen to get full then they can start another line on finch.

I would want to see how much this would cost first before supporting it, but I doubt that converting the subway would cost the same as a new $200 million per KM grade separated LRT line, since the tunnels, stations and much of the tracks are already there.
 
I'm not sure where you're getting this claim, but completely rebuilding platforms at a lower level, rebuilding tracks, and modifying tunnels to add catenary would most certainly require a long full shutdown of the subway.

I just can't fathom how somebody who considers themselves to be a transit advocate could support, with a straight face, a long term shutdown of a busy subway line, so that it can be replaced at great cost with a lower capacity, lower-quality system. I also can't understand why transit "advocates" think that it's a good idea to relentlessly attack a major transit investment as a failure. Do they seriously believe that it will inspire more transit investment in the future? It's all the more galling because it's completely untrue. Compare Sheppard to Chicago's Green Line. Sheppard moves 48,000 people a day and is growing every year, despite being only half-built to its primary destination. The Green Line moves fewer than 40,000 per day even though it is five times as long as Sheppard. I can assure you that Chicago transit "advocates" don't go around calling the Green Line a failure and suggesting that it be torn up and replaced with a lower-capacity system.

The plan is to raise the tracks in the stations for the LRT's.

TTC could run trains on one track while the other is being converted. Headway would have to be increase to allow for one train to run from point to point. At the same time, both ends still could be use as duel tracks to allow 2 trains to operate while the other stations are being upgraded. Once the requirement to fix the ends, then one tracks will be taken out of service with longer headway. Buses would have to be added at this point.

Yonge station will require part of the platform to be cut and lower down for 2 cars. The section that has to be lower would see slopping ramp up to the existing platform. At some point, the subway trains have to be remove to raise the tracks on the other line platforms. This will mean buses have to run to provide extra service until the 2nd LRT line comes on line.

I can say with a straight face, if you got $10m to through away each year to operate the current line as well the $1.5B to provide service to 60,000 riders while over 200,000 gets nothing, go with a subway while I go with an LRT. You need to added in the millions to operate the subway that cannot be offset with low ridership.

You are forcing riders to make 3 transfers to get from the east to the west along Sheppard going your way. An LRT will offer 1 transfer if it stops at Downsview. If it goes to Weston Rd, then no transfer.

Until there is over 100,000 riders a day or 7,000 at peak time, LRT can provide the service.

At no time has Toronto gone from buses to streetcars to Subway based on ridership requirement. Yonge and BD have gone from Streetcars to Subway since streetcars were first on those routes in the first place.

I support Subways and do see a subway on Sheppard at some future date, but cannot support building one as an extension past Victoria at this time. I would build the extension to Downsview first and interline it with the YUS before going east. Since there is no money to do this now, LRT is the way to go. I would support a Queen line over the Sheppard if given the choice.

To put in the transit that is badly needed for Toronto, you need $50B over the next 20 years to do it. If Metrolinx has a problem now trying to do a $55B plan for the GTAH over 25 years, who going to pay the extra $40B to do Toronto now??

The Green Line moves fewer than 40,000 per day even though it is five times as long as Sheppard.
There are LRT's lines that move less than 20,000 in the US. Does that say buses should be use in place of LRT's? Sheppard sees less than 40,000 and how does that number support a subway when Finch let alone Dufferin that see 47,000 riders will only see buses??
 

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