Toronto's and Province's New 12.4B Eglinton/SRT/Sheppard Plan

[accura407]

Re: Finch West with Articulated Buses.

What is the technical limitation that stops the TTC from using Articulated Buses along Suburban Avenues? I think Finch West could be improved instantly if it had the same frequency but with 60 ft buses instead of the current ones!

Mississauga does an excellent job getting thounsands of people moving along Hurontario daily, so why not?

Or is it just another dumb union issue?

 

[Brandon716]

Mississauga's articulated buses are a great example, Finch West can be better served with articulated buses. Using large buses is as effective as anything to help with Finch West overcrowding. Connecting with the new Spadina Subway extension also relieves Yonge a bit.

 

[Electrify]

You know, assuming they get rid of the McCowan yard, locating the new yard in the west end is pure genius! It means that the likelihood of this line being constructed to completion goes way up. The SRT NEEDS to be converted, so that phase is a given. If the link is to run across Eglinton, it will HAVE to connect to Yonge St. And with the garage near Black Creek, that phase has to be completed as well. The odds of this becoming another stub line are virtually nil.

Of course, they could decide to pull the plug on Eglinton and just convert the SRT and keep the McCowan yard, but I predict that to be very unlikely.

 

[44 North]

Ford's transit map looks all well and good...until you realize it's a heavily distorted rendition. Look at a to-scale map of the subway system and you realize just how distant Sheppard is from Bloor.

I don't think any city has ever built subways through their suburbs without increasing their system's reach in the core. I can understand the 'build it and they will come' mantra, but there are clearly more pressing transit matters facing the city. I think Eglinton should remain as originally planned under TC (so that it can reach the airport). Sheppard's current HRT subway should be converted to LRT (to save money), and be allowed to continue at-grade as proposed under TC.

Extending Sheppard as a full-fledged underground HRT would be the costliest mistake this city will make. Especially considering that it will leave a gaping hole in any plans for a much-needed DRL.

 

[Brandon716]

I think an underground LRT (or at least grade separated, not in the street) system would have been the preference for Sheppard, but that idea came from Network 2011 back in the early 1980's, not Rob Ford. The concept of completing it as an LRT doesn't make sense either, unless you're going to convert the tunnels to LRT. Considering that is costly and is unnecessary, I'm all for finishing Sheppard as a singular technology (subway, rapid transit). Yea, LRT would have been better, and we all know how far Sheppard is from Bloor, but the point is that it needs to be done right instead of some mixture with needless transfers or streetcar style service that stops at intersections.

Considering they are doing Eglinton LRT the right way now, underground/grade separated, and using less costly LRT it is a good idea. Eglinton and Sheppard will finish out the east-west rapid transit lines until a DRL can be funded. Network 2011 wasn't too far off, at least, just by a few years.

 

[Jaye101]

Mississauga's articulated buses are a great example, Finch West can be better served with articulated buses. Using large buses is as effective as anything to help with Finch West overcrowding. Connecting with the new Spadina Subway extension also relieves Yonge a bit.

The Finch East and West buses carry nearly two times more people than on Hurontario. We need dedicated bus lanes if anything, but if you go through the trouble of that, then you might as well invest in LRT.

 

[gweed123]

Maybe on Queen, but what about King? Wellington?

Even most places along King and Wellington are being relatively limited in height. You aren't going to see another CityPlace popping up along King East, which is what you would need in order to help prop up the massive construction costs that would be associated with this project. 20-35 storeys may get you some, but it will be a drop in the bucket.

 

[gweed123]

True.

Most of the core's best opportunities for redevelopment are along the rail corridors. The large lots of former industrial lands are well-suited to condo development. Even if there were no laws against or opposition to developing single-family residential neighbourhoods, the assembly of many small parcels of land would still make redevelopment of industrial lands more desirable.

Just look at the Queen West Triangle, Liberty Village, CityPlace, Harbourfront, West Donlands, etc...

Even if a DRL doesn't follow the rail corridors, it will certainly intersect and run close enough to those corridors to influence large-scale development. Don't expect another CityPlace, but there are still quite a few potential Queen West Triangle-scale development sites around.

In the west, I agree. I was referring more to the eastern segment of the line. The reasons you mentioned are exactly why I support a rail corridor alignment DRL from Spadina to Dundas West. The amount of Brownfield redevelopment that could take place would be staggering.

 

[gweed123]

Mississauga's articulated buses are a great example, Finch West can be better served with articulated buses. Using large buses is as effective as anything to help with Finch West overcrowding. Connecting with the new Spadina Subway extension also relieves Yonge a bit.

Many heavily used bus routes in Ottawa used articulated buses (I'm thinking specifically of the 118). It wouldn't be a long term solution, but as a stop-gap way to increase capacity without making any infrastructure changes, I think it would be worth it.

I really don't understand the TTC's aversion to artics.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Another Cityplace can go up on Front St, or Esplanade, and there's room for stuff on Queens Quay, and the Lakeshore particularly if they remove the Gardiner.

 

[gweed123]

Another Cityplace can go up on Front St, or Esplanade, and there's room for stuff on Queens Quay, and the Lakeshore particularly if they remove the Gardiner.

Most of the area that you're talking about is either already covered by the West Donlands plan, or is mainly infill development in the St. Lawrence Area. Any type of significant group density I would imagine would be located south of Lakeshore along the waterfront, which is more in the catchment area of the Waterfront East Stretcar, as opposed to the DRL.

 

[44 North]

Completing Sheppard as LRT does make sense, especially from a financial perspective. The "needless transfer" would be removed if they altered the current underground stations and made them compatible with LRVs. This actually was an idea proposed by the TTC (either that, or mothballing the current money-bleeding Sheppard line). It just costs too much to run HRT subways, especially when considering a farebox return from a measly ~45,000 riders/day.

Eglinton is okay. However, a potential at-grade westward section towards the airport would be a great addition in the future.

The problem is, since both Sheppard and Eglinton will be completely underground, there will be NO money for a DRL. Especially in light of Ford's promise to bring subway to Finch after Sheppard.

 

[gweed123]

Completing Sheppard as LRT does make sense, especially from a financial perspective. The "needless transfer" would be removed if they altered the current underground stations and made them compatible with LRVs. This actually was an idea proposed by the TTC (either that, or mothballing the current money-bleeding Sheppard line). It just costs too much to run HRT subways, especially when considering a farebox return from a measly ~45,000 riders/day.

It would cost around $600 million to retrofit the Sheppard subway to run with LRT technology. To put that in perspective, you could extend the Sheppard subway to Victoria Park for the same cost. East of Agincourt, the ridership doesn't really even justify LRT.

Eglinton is okay. However, a potential at-grade westward section towards the airport would be a great addition in the future.

I certainly hope it wouldn't be at-grade, but this has been debated ad nauseum.

The problem is, since both Sheppard and Eglinton will be completely underground, there will be NO money for a DRL. Especially in light of Ford's promise to bring subway to Finch after Sheppard.

Sheppard won't happen, and Finch certainly won't happen. My guess is that by the time the next election rolls around, Ford's Sheppard proposal will be just as far along as it is now (ie nowhere), and the City will make a swing back towards the political left. At this point, we just have to hope that the main candidate on the left has a DRL in their platform. Once it's clear who the candidates will be (I'm talking around 2 1/2 years down the road here), UT should launch a substantial lobbying effort to get this candidate to include the DRL as one of, if not their absolute, top transit priority.

By that point the DTRTES (or whatever it's called) will be done, and that can be used as the basis for any new DRL proposal. At that point it won't be a candidate supporting a pipe dream, it will be a candidate supporting an existing transit study.

 

[44 North]

It would cost around $600 million to retrofit the Sheppard subway to run with LRT technology. To put that in perspective, you could extend the Sheppard subway to Victoria Park for the same cost. East of Agincourt, the ridership doesn't really even justify LRT.



I certainly hope it wouldn't be at-grade, but this has been debated ad nauseum.



Sheppard won't happen, and Finch certainly won't happen. My guess is that by the time the next election rolls around, Ford's Sheppard proposal will be just as far along as it is now (ie nowhere), and the City will make a swing back towards the political left. At this point, we just have to hope that the main candidate on the left has a DRL in their platform. Once it's clear who the candidates will be (I'm talking around 2 1/2 years down the road here), UT should launch a substantial lobbying effort to get this candidate to include the DRL as one of, if not their absolute, top transit priority.

By that point the DTRTES (or whatever it's called) will be done, and that can be used as the basis for any new DRL proposal. At that point it won't be a candidate supporting a pipe dream, it will be a candidate supporting an existing transit study.

Jeez, $600 Million. I wouldn't have thought it would be that much to retrofit a station to fit LRVs.

Yeah, Eglinton at-grade west of Black Creek seems reasonable to me. What with the Richview Corridor and all.

I certainly hope Sheppard will not happen. It was a waste 10 years ago, and any extension would a considerable waste.

When Sarah Thomson ran for mayor, she included a DRL in her plan. What I detested about her was her stance against LRT. I believe we can have both. Hopefully we don't get a candidate like her. Or Ford, for that matter.

 

[Rainforest]

Completing Sheppard as LRT does make sense, especially from a financial perspective. The "needless transfer" would be removed if they altered the current underground stations and made them compatible with LRVs. This actually was an idea proposed by the TTC (either that, or mothballing the current money-bleeding Sheppard line). It just costs too much to run HRT subways, especially when considering a farebox return from a measly ~45,000 riders/day.

The cost of running the already existing tunneled section won't go down much, even if you convert it to LRT. It will still be necessary to maintain tracks and escalators and clean the stations. A minor cost saving could be achieved by switching to POP and eliminating the ticket booths, but then you need to reconfigure Sheppard / Yonge to separate the POP zone and the fare-paid zone.