Dan416
Senior Member
I don't think there's any polite way to respond to that...
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Toronto's and Province's New 12.4B Eglinton/SRT/Sheppard Plan
- Thread starter adeel
- Start date
I don't think there's any polite way to respond to that...
agoraflaneur
Active Member
Dare I even say the obvious, namely that the downtown should get a subway before both Sheppard and Finch? That being said, I think we could benefit from looking at Madrid, where they have an insane system built very quickly and financed through the private sector. If we could build a comprehensive enough system to attract large numbers of riders (think north/south connections as well), there could be enough money. I don't know all the details, but I think that a really good system would probably generate enough good spin-offs to the city to be worth it (increased productivity of course cannot be considered in the costing, nor can the money generated through non-municipal taxes, for instance, increased entertainment spending because people have more free time).
sixrings
Senior Member
The reaspm Madrid could build such a big system for so so little is because they dont have Unions and people will work for cheap... Now Im not throwing my hands up like Ford and blaming the unions for everything BUT realistically in this case it is a important point... I would have thought that because there is a recession people would want to work even if it was for less. However that doesnt look like its going to happen. If I was running for Prime Minister my transit platform would be that for the next 10 years we will outsource all new transit construction to people from other countries... This shouldnt upset current transit employees since much more construction would be happening that wouldnt happen otherwise... Is it unethical to get people to do it from other countries for miniumum wage that should be 40-50$ a hour jobs. Well we have seasonal farming employees that come and help farmers for less then we would pay a canadian. Is it any different then when we justify our vacations to Cuba saying to ourselves well if we didnt go then they really wouldnt have any money???? Im just saying if we could hire actual skilled workers to construct for minimum cost we could build an extensive system... Is it unethical maybe... But could it be a solution? most definately...
lafard
Active Member
Remember John Tory and the religious schools? Yeah.
Even in Alberta which has severe labour shortages and thus even day labourers are making six figures up at Fort Mac, the foreign workers program is not well liked. In a region with a persistent unemployment problem? Never, ever fly. Besides, if it's labour costs then how is Calgary building its West LRT for $50m/km when the equivalent here would be triple?
Even in Alberta which has severe labour shortages and thus even day labourers are making six figures up at Fort Mac, the foreign workers program is not well liked. In a region with a persistent unemployment problem? Never, ever fly. Besides, if it's labour costs then how is Calgary building its West LRT for $50m/km when the equivalent here would be triple?
sixrings
Senior Member
But ALL the unemployement arent people who would possibly be skilled transit constructors. For instance if I am unemplyeed but my skill is accounting then who cares if someone else gets the job. Im not qualified anyway...
Btw its not only the cost which would be a benefit but the amount of people you could hire the process would be done faster...
That whole exchange reminds me exactly of how Tony Clement dodged the questions on why they scrapped the long form census. "I have to facts or logic to back up what I'm saying, so I'm going to say the same thing over and over again and maybe you'll understand me differently".
I'd love to see Ford take an IQ test, seriously. I bet he'd get fewer points than the Leafs did this season.
I'd love to see Ford take an IQ test, seriously. I bet he'd get fewer points than the Leafs did this season.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Oh, bullshit. Spain is not a third world country. They do indeed have unions and though labour costs might be slightly lower, people do get paid living wages. Labour costs are one, minor factor in how Madrid managed to build such a substantial system.
Go read Steve Munro's blog post on the subject.
A huge part of it is economies of scale. Constant constructon allowed construction activities to simply move from one project to another rather than being reconstituted for each expansion, and allowed more of the design to be done during construction.
sixrings
Senior Member
If thats true we should be doing more subway expansion not less. If buying in bulk is cheaper even if we take on debt it makes more sense because there is always inflation.... At least Sarah Thomson had a way to pay for her plan.... In the perfect world TC would exist plus a DRL... And it might be that a perfect world is only perfect because there exists $60 drivers license fees and TOLLs.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Would it be though? P3's big cash cows are new ridership, and development that will accompany it. The prime purpose of the DRL is to give existing riders an alternate route, in order to relieve congested routes.
Yes, there may be some development between the CBD and the Don Valley, but the City isn't going to allow high-rise condos at Queen & Broadview, or anywhere along Queen East for that matter. The only place along the proposed DRL East route that will see any type of high-rise development is in Thorncliffe Park.
In short, the bulk of the DRL's riders will be existing riders (the opening of spaces on the Yonge line as a result of the DRL may create new riders though), and there is relatively little opportunity for high-rise development along the route. It isn't a Finch or Sheppard where the majority of the route is lined with strip malls and gas stations.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
Maybe on Queen, but what about King? Wellington?
CDL.TO
Moderator
True.
Most of the core's best opportunities for redevelopment are along the rail corridors. The large lots of former industrial lands are well-suited to condo development. Even if there were no laws against or opposition to developing single-family residential neighbourhoods, the assembly of many small parcels of land would still make redevelopment of industrial lands more desirable.
Just look at the Queen West Triangle, Liberty Village, CityPlace, Harbourfront, West Donlands, etc...
Even if a DRL doesn't follow the rail corridors, it will certainly intersect and run close enough to those corridors to influence large-scale development. Don't expect another CityPlace, but there are still quite a few potential Queen West Triangle-scale development sites around.
Brandon716
Senior Member
While I think Ford's concept of magical private money just magically appearing to complete Sheppard as a subway is naive (at best), the plan (if built) is fantastic. I prefer the faster pace of a fully grade separated Eglinton LRT that is integrated with a converted Scarborough RT as a singular line much more than the previous Transit City proposal.
The problem is that Eglinton LRT/Scarborough RT conversion is the only 100% funded, guaranteed transit line. I doubt Ford will find private financing, so Sheppard will likely become some expensive PPP project that is hugely wasteful. But whatever, as long as Sheppard Subway is completed it'll be good to have the progress.
Sheppard subway being completed as a singular technology, not a hybrid LRT/Subway transfer mess is also much improved over the previous plan.
For now, Finch West can be enhanced with bus lanes and articulated buses at minimal cost, so there isn't much to worry about there.
The problem is that Eglinton LRT/Scarborough RT conversion is the only 100% funded, guaranteed transit line. I doubt Ford will find private financing, so Sheppard will likely become some expensive PPP project that is hugely wasteful. But whatever, as long as Sheppard Subway is completed it'll be good to have the progress.
Sheppard subway being completed as a singular technology, not a hybrid LRT/Subway transfer mess is also much improved over the previous plan.
For now, Finch West can be enhanced with bus lanes and articulated buses at minimal cost, so there isn't much to worry about there.
jeffreym
Active Member
'Enhanced bus service' is not bus lanes. Finch is getting no such thing.
Brandon716
Senior Member
^I'm speaking theoretically. Finch West can have it's overcrowding problems relieved by upgrading to articulated buses and implementing bus lanes (if possible). It hasn't been planned, but... I'm just saying it's better than wasting all those billions on a streetcar line that still has to stop at every stoplight.