Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

It's always curious to read about the complexities of tunnelling through the CBD then seeing the tunnels of Enwave deep lake water cooling crossing the core as though it was no feat at all. Perhaps the expansion of this system could be bundled with subway expansion. If anything, it helps to bring large downtown tunnel construction from a point of wonder and awe to a more tangible level.
 
It's always curious to read about the complexities of tunnelling through the CBD then seeing the tunnels of Enwave deep lake water cooling crossing the core as though it was no feat at all. Perhaps the expansion of this system could be bundled with subway expansion. If anything, it helps to bring large downtown tunnel construction from a point of wonder and awe to a more tangible level.

Enwave has a massive advantage over a subway tunnel. Aside from being half the size with no need for station boxes, it can also make a 90 degree turn in any direction (including elevation) to go around obstacles. It is, however, a great example of a downtown only utility that would need to be moved, and cost tens of millions to move, if a subway was sent through.
 
Boring a tunnel isn't (shouldn't be!) that expensive. A lot of the problems with our subway costs come from the outrageous cost of our stations. Here, it's routine for an ordinary, low-ridership station to cost close to a hundred million dollars or even more. In Europe, they're more commonly $10 or $20 million and they look far better than ours. Obviously major interchanges cost much more. We need to figure out why theirs are so much cheaper.

That's one of the major reasons that cut-and-cover is less expensive: the station boxes don't have to be so deep.
 
Can you point out which first world European city builds 150-metre long subway stations for $10 million, and give an example with photographs?
 
Can you point out which first world European city builds 150-metre long subway stations for $10 million, and give an example with photographs?

I can point out a few station rebuilds in London that were on the order of $1B pounds. Can't think of anything in the UK that is anywhere close to $10M. Heck, even GO Transit has a hard time building a station at ground level for $10M total cost (land expropriation often requires close to that amount).
 
Can you point out which first world European city builds 150-metre long subway stations for $10 million, and give an example with photographs?

Line 3 in Bilbao is 5.885 km long with 7 stations and will cost 153 million euros. The stations are designed by Sir Norman Foster. (http://www2.deia.com/es/impresa/2009/05/01/bizkaia/herrialdeak/556255.php)
Munich is building an entire one kilometre subway extension including tunnel, station and finishings for 65 million euros. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/u-bahn-bis-martinsried-der-wissenszug-1.33146 I'm not going to take the time to dig up even more examples since I hardly think it would change your mind on anything.

Rbt, as I said, obviously major interchanges cost much more. But London and New York's costs are as nuts as ours. They might have some justification since they are, after all, London and New York. Alas, we're just Toronto.
 
Line 3 in Bilbao is 5.885 km long with 7 stations and will cost 153 million euros. The stations are designed by Sir Norman Foster. (http://www2.deia.com/es/impresa/2009/05/01/bizkaia/herrialdeak/556255.php)
This appears to be simply construction costs, and not the entire project. Also there is no indication what the stations themselves cost, compared to the rest of the tunnels. I'm not entirely sure the Basque area of Spain qualifies as first world ... obviously Spanish construction costs are going to be lower than here.

Munich is building an entire one kilometre subway extension including tunnel, station and finishings for 65 million euros. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/u-bahn-bis-martinsried-der-wissenszug-1.33146
The extension if about 900-metres long, of which the station is about 1/3 the length. The entire line is in an area where it can be trenched without any interference with roads or other buildings. The station is simple, with no bus facilities. What's more, it hasn't actually been built - construction is still 3-4 years away. The cost is about $100-million per kilometre, but this is only the construction costs, and doesn't seem to include any of the planning, rolling stock, yards, design, or other costs. Given the station box is about 1/3 the length of the $90-million project, I have my doubts that it will cost less than $10-million! I also have my doubts that it will come in at cost. Compare to Montreal where they deliberately massively underestimate subway construction costs, as it's the only way they get approved.

Rbt, as I said, obviously major interchanges cost much more. But London and New York's costs are as nuts as ours. They might have some justification since they are, after all, London and New York. Alas, we're just Toronto.
Our subway construction costs are a fraction of New York City. The Second Avenue subway is to cost $17 billion for a 13.7 km line; $1.25 billion per kilometre, if it comes in on budget; which never seems to happen there. The 2.1 km of the Flushing Line to Chelsea (1 station) is budgeted for $2-billion., almost $1-billion per kilometre. They estimate that it would cost $450-million just to build the shell for the cancelled 10th Avenue station
 
I wonder how the cost of the Spadina extension would have changed if stations were designed in the same manner as Queen. Queen is so shallow that the stairs lead directly to track level via a concourse area that is tiny by TTC standards. Queen has two exits and despite being a busy station, has no problems handling the crowds.

Summerhill is another great example, and still would be even if a second exit was built to mirror the first.
 
This appears to be simply construction costs, and not the entire project. Also there is no indication what the stations themselves cost, compared to the rest of the tunnels. I'm not entirely sure the Basque area of Spain qualifies as first world ... obviously Spanish construction costs are going to be lower than here...

The Basque Area in Spain is one of the most economically productive and wealthy regions of the country.

The lower costs may be due to actually tunnelling through rock instead of sand and watersheds here in Toronto. The harder the sruface you're digging through the elss work you have to do to keep it from collapsing, thus less infrastructure needed to retain the walls etc.

In Toronto, we have the fortune of living on top of a whole slew of rivers both at grade and below grade, whcih make the task of tunneling and building underground structures very difficult. The constant change in temperature between warm and cold also affects the soil.
 
from: NovæResUrbis Greater Toronto Area Edition Vol.14 No.20
Wednesday,May 25, 2011

Last week vivaNext hosted a breakfast
meeting to present its business case
and to gather support for funding the
Yonge Subway extension, designated as
one of Metrolinx’s top-15 projects in
2008.

The proposed 7.4 km extension from
Finch Avenue to north of Highway 7
includes six stations and two major bus
terminals with commuter parking
facilities. While the initial conceptual
design study, planned to be completed
this fall, has been funded by the
province and region, the remainder of
the project is not funded.

Metrolinx is currently undertaking
a business case assessment for the project. A
phased option to extend the subway
initially to Steeles is being considered
due to funding constraints.
 
Boring a tunnel isn't (shouldn't be!) that expensive. A lot of the problems with our subway costs come from the outrageous cost of our stations. Here, it's routine for an ordinary, low-ridership station to cost close to a hundred million dollars or even more. In Europe, they're more commonly $10 or $20 million and they look far better than ours. Obviously major interchanges cost much more. We need to figure out why theirs are so much cheaper.

That's one of the major reasons that cut-and-cover is less expensive: the station boxes don't have to be so deep.
Southern Ontario is one of the most difficult construction environements in the world. As BMO pointed out, we have soft soils and a high water table. Even a small amount of seepage really slows down the CBM and raises prices. Surface tension agglomerates the water film around the grains and makes an abrasive paste with the ground-off muck When working in areas allowing infiltration, the discs last about 10% as long. Also, the whole tunnel has to be waterproofed, rather than a trench drain and occational pumping station.
 
Southern Ontario is one of the most difficult construction environements in the world. As BMO pointed out, we have soft soils and a high water table. Even a small amount of seepage really slows down the CBM and raises prices. Surface tension agglomerates the water film around the grains and makes an abrasive paste with the ground-off muck When working in areas allowing infiltration, the discs last about 10% as long. Also, the whole tunnel has to be waterproofed, rather than a trench drain and occational pumping station.

So does this mean that Southern Ontario is more difficult than say? Greater Vancouver Region? Because i was always under the impression that the Vancouver region was very difficult to tunnel in...thus the reason for all its elevated transit routes (except the Canada Line)

Secondly, if Southern Ontario is so difficult to tunnel in, why don't consultants & the government push that point to the people so that we can stop tunneling? I think that was how Vancouver convinced its citizens to go elevated all over the place! I think 99.9% of People in Toronto have no idea that going underground is more difficult & challenging than normal...

Anyway, it is the first time i'm hearing of this...
 
So does this mean that Southern Ontario is more difficult than say? Greater Vancouver Region? Because i was always under the impression that the Vancouver region was very difficult to tunnel in...thus the reason for all its elevated transit routes (except the Canada Line)

Secondly, if Southern Ontario is so difficult to tunnel in, why don't consultants & the government push that point to the people so that we can stop tunneling? I think that was how Vancouver convinced its citizens to go elevated all over the place! I think 99.9% of People in Toronto have no idea that going underground is more difficult & challenging than normal...

Anyway, it is the first time i'm hearing of this...

I think Vancouver went with skytrain technology because the ontario crown corporation that invented the technology had a bunch of extra equipment because a bunch of projects in Toronto fell through, so Vancouver copped up a really good price for it. Tunnelling in Vancouver would be more difficult, not from the soil component but from the large changes in elevations throughout the city. Toronto has shitty soil, but a relatively less extreme variation in elevations throughout, this allows for shallower stations.

edit: also Vancouver doesn't have as much snow, so maintaining an elevated structure would be relatively easier than in Toronto.
 
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So does this mean that Southern Ontario is more difficult than say? Greater Vancouver Region? Because i was always under the impression that the Vancouver region was very difficult to tunnel in...thus the reason for all its elevated transit routes (except the Canada Line)
I haven't worked with geotech data from BC that much, but in general they have two boring issues: fault lines and relatively high artesian pore pressure. There are generally three types of Tunnel Borers: Continous (CBM for hard rock), Earth Pressure Balance and Slurry Shields (for soft rock). For areas with soft ground and very high water pressure or large amounts of ground water, Slurry Shields are needed. Soils are mixed with bentonite slurry, which must be removed from the tunnel through a system of slurry tubes that exit the tunnel. Large slurry separation plants are needed on the surface for this process, which separate the dirt from the slurry so it can be recycled back into the tunnel.

Vancouver is in a basin area, but has two advantages over Toronto being a shallower frost depth and less glacial till, which kills the machines with the wide variety of large boulders to fine silts and sands. Vancouver is also more seismicly active than Toronto to decrease a tunnel's life-span, so it isn't like Vancouver is an easy dig.

As an example of tunnel conditions in Ontario, in 2008, a tunnel boring machine digging part of the York-Durham Langstaff trunk sewer, which they were excavating 22 metres below ground. About 1800 m³ of mud poured into the tunnel, leaving the 10-metre tunnel boring machine and 50 metres of trailing equipment stranded underground at a point east of Dufferin Street, north of Highway 407. The tunnel was sealed and delayed the project by a year. The TBM was later extracted.

Secondly, if Southern Ontario is so difficult to tunnel in, why don't consultants & the government push that point to the people so that we can stop tunneling?
As for why do it? Because consultants are paid to design what politicians want and don't mind getting paid to run around in circles. Politicians are elected on general sentiment rather than logic or technical understanding. It was the reason for TransitCity being 90% surface rail. It's also one of many reasons why Sheppard Subway P3 is lacking potential partners. I think that's one part where Miller failed to win public support for his plan, they didn't give sound bite explainations of the advantages in cost and impact. People don't want another 'Gardnier eye-sore' and there is not enough space for cars already at ground level, so that means people are in favour of trains where they can't see them. Most people don't every look at construction project costs beyond the total price tag.
 

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