Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[adeel]

Why would York region pay 50% upto Steeles?

This is a massive thread, but given the parties involved (Province, City of Toronto, York Region, Town of Richmond Hill, possibly Town of Markham) has discussion as to how the extenstion would be paid for come up at all?

 

[Markster]

For transit riders who find themselves at the Richmond Hill Hub, would they automatically decide to take the subway or would many, who are traveling down to the CBD take the go instead? If this transit hub works efficiently, could it not actually take some pressure off of the Yonge line?
Many people who now travel to Finch Station likely do so because it is appears most convenient for them even though the Go train could be faster. This transit hub could be the impetus for this change in mindset.

Unlikely.

Consider the person standing at Richmond Hill Hub today.
Right now, their choice is
a) take a bus down Yonge to Finch, and take the subway from there, or
b) take the GO train

And then consider the person standing at Richmond Hill Hub when the subway is extended.
a) take the subway
b) take the GO train

An extension of the subway just makes the non-GO Train option more attractive. If you're currently taking the bus/subway option, your ride is only going to get better.
The only way that a subway extension increases use of the GO Train is by spuring development around the hub, of which some use GO and some use the subway. But that of course increases use of the subway as well.


Now, if there were significant service increase on GO (like 10 minute peak service) then you'd see a massive shift. But that has nothing to do with the subway's terminus.

 

[Chuck]

Now, if there were significant service increase on GO (like 10 minute peak service) then you'd see a massive shift. But that has nothing to do with the subway's terminus.

It is important to remember that the transit culture in this part of York Region is TTC oriented, as opposed to GO oriented in let's say Durham Region. Having grown up in the area myself, I can't stress enough that a very large percentage of the people who currently use the subway don't take it all the way downtown. For them, the subway extension would always be more convenient.

 

[EnviroTO]

A source in the city (Toronto) tells me that detailed engineering drawings for this extension are being produced. Not sure what that means, but it could indicate that this project may be ready to go forward very quickly once funding is announced.

I wouldn't be surprised. Installing ATC on the Yonge Line isn't called the "Yonge Line Capacity and Reliability Project" or any other such name. The project is called "Yonge Subway Extension to Richmond Hill (Phase 1)". It has always been a done deal that it is going to happen... just a matter of when. I think it is a matter of phasing in the required capacity increases (new subway trains, ATC, and the number of people moved off the Yonge line from Finch, Steeles, and Vaughan from the Spadina extension).

 

[nfitz]

A source in the city (Toronto) tells me that detailed engineering drawings for this extension are being produced. Not sure what that means, but it could indicate that this project may be ready to go forward very quickly once funding is announced.

No surprise here. In the approved TTC budget was the $376-million to prebuild from 2014 to 2016 the cut-and-cover portion of the line from Finch to Cummer to store 10 subway trains. To do this, they needed detailed engineering drawings I'd think at least as far as the station box for Steeles station.

 

[GenerationW]

This is exactly why Toronto City Council put forward a motion that the DRL be built in-tandum with the Yonge extension. They did this because:

a) The Yonge extension will overwhelm the Yonge line south of around Eglinton
b) It's the best way to secure funding for the DRL (ie to make it a condition of a suburban subway extension)

Which is still no guarantee we'll get a DRL. I have a lot more faith in the metaphysical certainty of a Yonge extension in the not-too-distant future and in York Region getting what it wants than I do in a City Council motion.

 

[gweed123]

No surprise here. In the approved TTC budget was the $376-million to prebuild from 2014 to 2016 the cut-and-cover portion of the line from Finch to Cummer to store 10 subway trains. To do this, they needed detailed engineering drawings I'd think at least as far as the station box for Steeles station.

I wonder if they've also finally figured out the political game. You get all your ducks in a row first, and then you go for funding, so that the funding can't be pulled out from under you before you get shovels in the ground. Let me rephrase that, you first go for funding to get enough money to get all the planning and engineering work done, and THEN you go for construction funding.

I wonder if the City will take a similar course when it comes to the DRL. The motion to include the DRL as a condition of the Yonge extension was officially adopted by council, right? I know it was proposed, but I don't remember off-hand if it was ever officially adopted.

 

[gweed123]

Which is still no guarantee we'll get a DRL. I have a lot more faith in the metaphysical certainty of a Yonge extension in the not-too-distant future and in York Region getting what it wants than I do in a City Council motion.

Well the City is pre-building almost to Steeles, so it almost sounds like they're prepping it to just say "ok York Region, if you want it, take it from here (or at least pay us to do the work to take it from here)."

But I agree, until we still some actual work being done on the DRL (station designs, engineering, planning), it's still just in its study phase.

Side question, when is the DRTES actually due? I checked on their webpage (http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Pr...ntown_Rapid_Transit_Expansion_Study/index.jsp), but no dates are included.

 

[BMO]

I'm sure extending the line atleast to steeles from an operations and efficiency standpoint would be worth it for the TTC. Especially in terms of making their bus routes more efficient. The left turns at the Yonge st intersection for the 53, and 60 buses are often where a lot fo the backlogging occurs. Especially since at times you have various other YRT routes doing left turns as well.

I'm sure taking out the need for the 60, and 53 to service the stops between steels and finch can also reduce the amount of buses needed on the routes as well as improve the reliability and timing/ frequency of the routes.

This in turn may even improve capacity on the 60 and 53 buses since often people headed somewhere on yonge st near steels ave will often wait for one or the other and take it to steeles since there is a better chance of getting a bus sooner if you wait for either the 60 or 53 instead of the 97.

All this tied-in with being able to get rid of the YRT terminal/ GO terminal and moving it to Steels would do wonders for the area, which would then be servicing two or three routes?

Also, the extension would definitely promote intensifications along the corridor between finch and steeles. I know there is no current plan for this, but many of the properties lining yonge are strip plazas and greyfield sites that could easily be infilled and intensified.

Whether that will kill the current businesses or not, I don't know. I'm sure it will have a subtantial effect on them, but if streefront retail was put in place as a policy for the instensification in this area, I can really see a thriving small business area.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I read that Star article too but it's really nothing new. A little searching shows the local paper had a story on the planned "Union Station North" a full three years ago. And the RH official plan isn't either. It looks like the Star was keying off of a transportation study they did at the region but other than that it's really nothing new for people who've followed this thread.

Viva has kept moving forward with the design work so they can be ready to go if/when the money comes. I don't think it's any kind of secret. They've openly kept lobbying Metrolinx, and regional council passed a report a couple of months ago saying they should look into alternate financing. They're hot to trot.

 

[gweed123]

I read that Star article too but it's really nothing new. A little searching shows the local paper had a story on the planned "Union Station North" a full three years ago. And the RH official plan isn't either. It looks like the Star was keying off of a transportation study they did at the region but other than that it's really nothing new for people who've followed this thread.

Viva has kept moving forward with the design work so they can be ready to go if/when the money comes. I don't think it's any kind of secret. They've openly kept lobbying Metrolinx, and regional council passed a report a couple of months ago saying they should look into alternate financing. They're hot to trot.

On the other hand, it's nice to see a municipality identify what they need, chart a course to it, and then stick on that course. No wavering, no bickering, just get it done.

Let's just hope Toronto can lobby Metrolinx to piggyback the DRL onto York Region's subway ambitions.

 

[nfitz]

Let's just hope Toronto can lobby Metrolinx to piggyback the DRL onto York Region's subway ambitions.

I'd guess even if they do build the Yonge extension without the DRL, then the unusability of the Yonge line afterward might get us the DRL a lot sooner than if we just sit and wait for them to build it first or at the same time.

 

[BMO]

This exactly why the government doesn't want to build the DRL first, because then you'd have a whole bunch of RIght Leaning people who are shouting about wasting $2billion on a subway line downtown.

If the Yonge Line is unusable then there is no choice but to buidl the new line, it will be such an issue that it will be a necessity.

Although I feel like sometimes people on these boards exagerate the overcapacity on the yonge line that currently exists.

 

[nfitz]

Although I feel like sometimes people on these boards exagerate the overcapacity on the yonge line that currently exists.

It's certainly not pretty now ... I hear lots of stories of people not being able to get on trains.

But I don't think that the real issue is the current situation. The real problem is how much demand is expected to increase over the next 20 years. In particular, the extension of the Yonge subway to Richmond Hill would push it over the top, pushing demand to the point where the line is so over-capacity that capacity would actually decrease.

 

[Asterix]

This exactly why the government doesn't want to build the DRL first, because then you'd have a whole bunch of RIght Leaning people who are shouting about wasting $2billion on a subway line downtown.

$2 billion will likely not get you much of a downtown subway line.

People seem to like throwing around subway construction costs as if a km of subway is a km of subway is a km of subway.

Unlike tunneling under empty fields or low rise industrial areas out to Vaughan, there is a heck of a lot more to deal with for the DRL. You've got deep foundations for the office towers, snaking PATH tunnels, decades (centuries?) of sewers, water, and other utilities running all over.

Then once you've figured out how to get your tunnels through, you've got to figure out how to integrate the new stations into the existing infrastructure.

It's all doable and not out of reach technologically, but to think it would be 'easy' or 'cheap', let alone just something that can be tacked on to an extension to Richmond Hill is incredibly naive.

The sooner this gets on more radars and seriously planned, the better. It'll take quite a while to save up those pennies and mop up the gravy to pay for it all.