Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[scarberiankhatru]

The service roads were definitely mentioned in the recent TTC report...lemme see if I can find it in a quick Google...Yeah, it's on P9 here: An extension of the service road from Finch to Drewry - not to Steeles, yet.

Actually, the extension of the west service road (Beecroft) as far as Drewry has been planned since the 80s...it's not a new plan related to the subway extension, it's been built in phases as redevelopment proceeds. It's not even fully built south of Finch yet. The east service road (Doris) won't even make it as far north as Cummer. There are no plans to extend either of them to Steeles.

Anybody, know where I can find predicted ridership estimates for the extension? Official or unofficial....

I'd like to see estimates for each station, but I don't think those numbers have been released, of if they have I haven't found them. The EA is like a million pages long, though, so maybe it's hidden in there.

 

[Chuck]

Anybody, know where I can find predicted ridership estimates for the extension? Official or unofficial....

This stuff is honestly so easy to find...the TTC even has a Yonge extension webpage.

Richmond Hill: 113,000
Langstaff: 13,700
Royal Orchard: 6,800
Clark: 8,100
Steeles: 23,900
Cummer: 9,200

The peak hour volume is 14,000 per hour crossing Steeles. The total daily ridership is 175,000, which compares to the 43,000 people who currently ride the Sheppard subway.

 

[lordmandeep]

Woh, On Richmond Hill.

What makes them think that high ^^^

I would imagine Steeles be much higher.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Cummer is low as it will be 12-15K on day one (assuming riders of the 42 use it), growing to over 20K given redevelopments. Steeles is clearly low and could be 40K or more on day one, unless the Steeles East and West bus riders are diverted. RHC's estimate can only materialize via massive redevelopments and a total revamping of YRT's feeder bus routes...seems they're being a tad selective in what future conditions are applied to each station's estimate.

 

[Chuck]

seems they're being a tad selective in what future conditions are applied to each station's estimate.

Also known as the definition of transportation planning. Make assumptions and skew the numbers to prove your client's point.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Also known as the definition of transportation planning. Make assumptions and skew the numbers to prove your client's point.

Oh, I know. By "a tad selective," I really meant "extremely selective." They inflated RHC to justify running the subway that far north and they've cut some of the estimates for other stations in half to minimize the downstream impact...they're not fooling anybody.

 

[nfitz]

Richmond Hill: 113,000

That means there will be more people exiting at this station than any on the system today. (Finch is currently highest at 92,000). You'd almost think it would be worthwhile to extend one-more stop, as a lot of east-west traffic would still get off at Richmond Hill for Viva, and north-south traffic could get dispersed elsewhere.

With these types of loads, I would think it wouldn't be long before there's talk of another extension to Major Mac.

 

[BMO]

That means there will be more people exiting at this station than any on the system today. (Finch is currently highest at 92,000). You'd almost think it would be worthwhile to extend one-more stop, as a lot of east-west traffic would still get off at Richmond Hill for Viva, and north-south traffic could get dispersed elsewhere.

With these types of loads, I would think it wouldn't be long before there's talk of another extension to Major Mac.

yea true it almost seems better to just extend it to 16th avenue for the benefit of ending at Hillcrest mall, not just for a trip generator but that way there isn't soo much pressure on richmond hill centre from all the north routes converging with the east/west routes and the potential transitway and GO, i think 16th would provide a bit of dispersion.

 

[kEiThZ]

This stuff is honestly so easy to find...the TTC even has a Yonge extension webpage.

Richmond Hill: 113,000
Langstaff: 13,700
Royal Orchard: 6,800
Clark: 8,100
Steeles: 23,900
Cummer: 9,200

The peak hour volume is 14,000 per hour crossing Steeles. The total daily ridership is 175,000, which compares to the 43,000 people who currently ride the Sheppard subway.

Can you share the document where you got those?

 

[xtremesniper]

Honestly, I believe the high numbers for RHC aren't overkill.

I was thinking about this the other day as I was standing at RHC waiting to catch the Viva Purple, and I realized that I know quite a few people (including myself) that have multiple options for their routes to get places. As of right now, the ridership is fairly dispersed. Some people go south on TTC contracted buses first, and then travel east/west. Some others go east/west first, then south on Yonge using Viva or YRT. Some of those will hit RHC at one point or another, while others may not.

But once there is a subway station at RHC (or beyond), ridership trends will change drastically. I'm not sure how much of that they are accounting for in their estimates, but I can see a total disregard for many of the north/south routes we have today as people switch to different routes to get to the subway.

And I agree that the subway may as well go to 16th Ave, since there is fairly heavy pedestrian traffic at that intersection at almost any time of day anyway. Hillcrest Mall on one corner, a fairly big plaza with some restaurants, a grocery store, a Future Shop and more on the other corner, another business/plaza on another corner, and yet another plaza on the last corner. But they had to stop it somewhere for the sake of gaining support from the south, I guess.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think what surprises me most about those numbers is the split between RHC and Langstaff. I think the difference between the two won't be so huge when you consider that the parking lots will be at Langstaff.

They're also still planning how to move 30,000 people into that area but clearly a decent percentage of them will go to the Langstaff stop and it makes sense for any internal transportation system to funnel people there.

The planners made it clear that they regarded the stops as two halves of one whole and if that is the case, they need to find a better split than having 90% of the people use RHC...

 

[lead82]

I'm looking forward to seeing the details of that development plan for the Langstaff lands. I would hope that they would extend some roads under the 407 to connect with Langstaff road. Otherwise there will be severe gridlock trying to get into and out of that area using only one road the will dump all the traffic onto Yonge or Bayview.

Lets see how this project progresses. If it goes like other York/VIVA projects, then we will see it get funding priority and proceed with design soon.

 

[PSC]

There is only one place where High Tech can be joined to Langstaff, and that's Red Cedar (to the north) and Cedar (to the south) - 407 already has the overpass built. That said, Langstaff is still going to be a terrible place to try to exit. High Tech is already at capacity...

The split between Langstaff and RHC stations can almost entirely be explained by transit. Viva Blue (east), Purple and Pink will all feed into this station, as well as many YRT local buses - whereas Langstaff will have the new development (bounded by Bayview, Yonge, the 407 and the cemetery), and, um, drivers off the 407. There will be few people coming to Langstaff from the south.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm looking forward to seeing the details of that development plan for the Langstaff lands. I would hope that they would extend some roads under the 407 to connect with Langstaff road.

There was a fairly detailed (but preliminary) plan presented in November. As stated elsewhere, the are limited opportunities for n/s links but they were looking at some 407 ramps from inside the area so people aren't going out to the main streets.

The basic gist is a spine of parks in the middle with high and mid rise around the perimetre and stacked townhouses on the cross streets - very TOD, very pedestrian-friendly, in theory.

I have the basic concept plan in front of me but can't find it on the net anywhere. This is the best I could find...

 

[drum118]

This stuff is honestly so easy to find...the TTC even has a Yonge extension webpage.

Richmond Hill: 113,000
Langstaff: 13,700
Royal Orchard: 6,800
Clark: 8,100
Steeles: 23,900
Cummer: 9,200

The peak hour volume is 14,000 per hour crossing Steeles. The total daily ridership is 175,000, which compares to the 43,000 people who currently ride the Sheppard subway.

In which year for Yonge St??.

Today ridership on VIVA Blue is 15,351 daily.

VIVA runs 6 60' buses from Finch at Peak Time. Using 75 riders per bus, you are moving 450 riders. Using a 3% growth rate up to 2018, you will be moving 650 riders. 75 is peak ridership number for 60' buses. This means that all buses going north of Steeles will be going into crush load factor to RHC.

If we look at Crush load 90 riders from Finch, class 7, you are moving 540 today and 746 in 2018. Where are you going to put the extra riders north of Steeles on those Crush 7 buses??

If we move to 5% per year, you will be moving 1,466 to 1,759 riders from Finch by 2018.

Ridership is well below a subway requirement and still in the range of BRT let alone LRT.

By 2018 using 3% growth for Blue, daily ridership will be 20,630. Using 5%, ridership will be 25,005. Using 10% increase yearly, ridership will be 39,817 daily.

If we look at 2031 numbers, 3% increase yearly will see 36,231 riders daily, 5% would see 56,387 riders. 10% yearly increase would see 137,457 riders daily.

For peak time, we would see 888 using 75 riders per bus. Crush load 7, 90 riders per bus would be 1,060 riders for 3%.

5% would see 2,764 for 75/bus and 3,317 for 90/bus. Still well below subway standards and in the range of LRT.

Using 10% yearly, we would see 5,529 riders using 75/bus or 24 buses/hr. Using crush load 90/hr you would be moving 6,636 riders. Still in range of LRT and still under subway.

To get to the 10% range, you need 60,000 new residents or 25,000 units built along or next to Yonge St over the next 22 years.

Keep in mind, you will be moving 2,000 parking lots space to Langstaff/Longbridge from Finch come 2018.

The earliest I can see a subway to RHC is 2040.

If we look at Mississauga Hurontario St Route 19 today, it carries 25,676 daily using 40' buses. It see close to 800 riders at peak time. Using 3% over the same time frame as Yonge, ridership will be 1,107, 5% would see 1,368 and 10% would be 2,282 at peak time come 2018. Come 2031, ridership would be 1,626 for 3%, 2,580 for 5% and 7,880 for 10%.

Daily ridership would be 52,192 for 3%, 82,808 for 5% and 252,909 for 10% come 2031.

I know of 3 development along Hurontario that will add 5,000 new riders over the next 15 years. I am not factoring in the Sq One Development.

Mississauga is talking LRT well Metrolinx is talking BRT because of Brampton. No Brampton ridership included in the numbers for Hurontario service by BT.

At the end of the day, Mississauga should get a subway before York on numbers alone.

I have $2.4B, where and how do I spend that money????

Simple answers is using it to build LRT lines. That about 100km vs 6.2km of subway. Keep in mind there still an extra of $400m to $1.5B to build a yard for this extension. $400m is a saw off going with an LRT carhouse vs. subway yard, but anymore, less expansion GTAH.

Why should 6,000 riders get premium service, while over 200,000 will not because of this extension??