Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

micheal_can said:
So, you want to split line 1 into 2 different lines?
Do I need to tell you how flawed that is, or would you rather link me the forum and I help all of you learn?
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Is it flawed though? Let's take one of your suggestions, an Avenue Rd subway, seriously for a moment. Under a decoupled Spadina Line, this frees the University Line to possibly backtrack into the Yonge Line at Davisville Stn. So southbound trains from Richmond Hill could either have the option to take the regular routing down Yonge... OR, via the existing third platform follow a new alignment via Avenue/side streets down to St George and then regular routing to Union via University. Northbound University Line trains could be served at Davisville via a new NB platform underneath the existing NB platform:

bAItWy3.png

fhIQDUo.png


This loop effectively diverts traffic away from Bloor-Yonge and opens up new areas of downtown to subways. It's a winning proposition.
 
Hopkins123 said:
Is it flawed though? Let's take one of your suggestions, an Avenue Rd subway, seriously for a moment. Under a decoupled Spadina Line, this frees the University Line to possibly backtrack into the Yonge Line at Davisville Stn. So southbound trains from Richmond Hill could either have the option to take the regular routing down Yonge... OR, via the existing third platform follow a new alignment via Avenue/side streets down to St George and then regular routing to Union via University. Northbound University Line trains could be served at Davisville via a new NB platform underneath the existing NB platform:

bAItWy3.png

fhIQDUo.png


This loop effectively diverts traffic away from Bloor-Yonge and opens up new areas of downtown to subways. It's a winning proposition.
Click to expand...

Actually, it makes things worse.The good thing about the U is that it is long enough to put lots of trains on it and they are moving throughout the U. You want to really mess up a line with 2 options? Bad idea. The problem becomes anyone north of Davisville has to wait for a second train for their destination south except for Union.

If you wanted to truncate it at Union, that would also be a bad thing. You would need more tracks and platforms at Union to handle the trains coming and going.

Leave the U as it is. Other options using new tracks/tunnels are the better solution.
 
Gary Benner P. Eng. said:
There has been some discussion of this in the past, but given the City and Province moving ahead with an extension of the existing subway to Richmond Hill, it is critical that a real relief subway be constructed in the Yonge Street corridor. If not, the additional ridership from continual development, 905 riders, and the connection of the Eglinton Crosstown will make the current subway dysfunctional. It will also lead to dangerous overcrowding on the platforms.

As a tunnelling engineer, I looked at how we could build an express subway on Yonge street in parallel to the existing line. The answer is surprisingly simple. We select the work sites and new stations at locations were the existing subway is not within the Yonge Street right-of-way - at Lakeshore Blvd., at Mt. Pleasant Cemetery (south of Davisville), at York Mills Rd. and at Steeles Avenue. North of Steeles Avenue, the new subway would function as a local subway and connect with all the major streets - John, Hwy 7, 16th, Major Mac. etc.

My proposal does not connect to the Bloor-Danforth, Crosstown, or Sheppard subways because these connections would be very difficult and expensive to build and they are not necessary so long as there is reasonable connectivity between the old and new lines as there would be Downtown, at Mt. Pleasant Cemetery, and at York Mills Road. The tunnel lengths I am proposing of 5-6 km. are doable and because of the long drive lengths the cost will be less than the Crosstown.

The only real risk in the new subway construction is tunnelling directly under the live existing subway. South of Bloor St., the new tunnel would be deep and all in shale bedrock so the risk is minimal. North of Eglinton Ave. to Hoggs Hollow and again from south of Hwy 401 to Finch Ave., the new tunnel would be well below the existing subway structure ameliorating the risk. Careful mining techniques are required and modern tunnel boring machines are capable of dealing with varying geotechnical conditions that would be encountered. I have run the new tunnel profile from Lakeshore Blvd. to Steeles Ave. and the available tunnel window looks good.

I am now trying to get the TTC, the City, and the Province to look at this concept seriously. Below is an extract from my preliminary study. More detail on the website https://undergroundconsulting.ca/

I would appreciate some feedback.

Yonge Street Express Subway - Downtown Toronto to Richmond Hill

Preliminary Plan and Construction Feasibility​

  • Main Features
  • 26 kilometres of all new subway line from Yonge St. at Lake Shore Blvd. to Major MacKenzie Dr. in Richmond Hill
  • Twinning of the existing subway on Yonge St. will provide real congestion relief and redundancy for the existing line
  • The latest operating technology can be used for the new Express line without being incumbered by existing outdated signaling and driver operation. It could be full subway or LRT style.
  • All new tunnel construction is within existing right-of-ways – no property is required
  • There is minimal impact on residents and businesses for such a major project
  • Connections with the existing subway provided at Downtown, Davisville and York Mills Stations
  • There is potential for an extension to Toronto Islands
Click to expand...
A few concerns I have are:
  1. Very deep stations would be very costly and time consuming to build.
  2. Very deep line would still require frequent emergency exits, which would also be getting up there in cost (and may require property).
  3. The lack of stops in the downtown core may reduce it's usefulness. Coming from any legacy station, would someone realistically transfer to this Express Line and then transfer back again to the normal Yonge Line to reach a stop from Bloor to King? Basically, everyone would still want to be on the old Yonge Line when they are south of Davisville. You have to have at least 4 stations downtown - among the following; Bloor, Gerrard, Dundas, Queen, King, Front.
For the Richmond Hill portion - I think the key is to find the cheapest way of building it. I see cut-and-cover as the key. Use pre-cast concrete tunnel segments so that the road disruption is minimized. Don't even deck over the excavation, just dig, lay tunnel, and backfill as a moving operation. Of course at Stations decking is required. (Buses could be sent down Willowdale Ave. or Hilda Ave. during construction).
I'd love to get an opinion on cut-and-cover and much much cheaper than tunneling it would be through Toronto soils. Problem is its not just a tunneling question, because the shallower depth also saves money on stations, ventilation, emergency exits, etc. and provided better street-to-platform access in service.

For Yonge Relief:
  1. I see more frequent service on the Richmond Hill GO line. Double tracking the whole thing may be excessive, but maybe adding a passing track. Also adding some type of funicular or gondola transfer with the Bloor Subway Line.
  2. Of course I also suggest the Ontario Line being extended at least to Seneca College - to intercept buses before they get to Yonge.
  3. I also suggest connecting STC to downtown without passing through Yonge-Bloor.
Relief may be needed after this, but I would leave that for future generations to find.
 
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Hopkins123 said:
Is it flawed though? Let's take one of your suggestions, an Avenue Rd subway, seriously for a moment. Under a decoupled Spadina Line, this frees the University Line to possibly backtrack into the Yonge Line at Davisville Stn. So southbound trains from Richmond Hill could either have the option to take the regular routing down Yonge... OR, via the existing third platform follow a new alignment via Avenue/side streets down to St George and then regular routing to Union via University. Northbound University Line trains could be served at Davisville via a new NB platform underneath the existing NB platform:

bAItWy3.png

fhIQDUo.png


This loop effectively diverts traffic away from Bloor-Yonge and opens up new areas of downtown to subways. It's a winning proposition.
Click to expand...
It would be so much easier just to extend the current line 1 platforms at busier stations to fit an extra car or 2.
 
littlewill1166 said:
It would be so much easier just to extend the current line 1 platforms at busier stations to fit an extra car or 2.
Click to expand...
Or simply use longer train on existing platforms. I doubt pocket tracks are designed so precisely that they can't accommodate a slightly longer trains with precision ATC.
North of Bloor, first car does not align with platform. South of Bloor, last car does not align with platform.
 
BurlOak said:
Or simply use longer train on existing platforms. I doubt pocket tracks are designed so precisely that they can't accommodate a slightly longer trains with precision ATC.
North of Bloor, first car does not align with platform. South of Bloor, last car does not align with platform.
Click to expand...
Existing platforms can be lengthened. They don't have to be straight. St. Clair, Union, and Museum stations already have non-straight platforms (and those are the current platforms).
 
Rainforest said:
That's a very interesting concept, I never thought about this kind of solution before.

However, do you think it may be useful to route the downtown section of the new subway under Bay Street, rather than under Yonge and the existing subway? The Bay Street section would not need to be very deep, allowing multiple stations and thus a better access to destinations in downtown.
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The problem with trying to use Bay Street is that it ends at Davenport Road and there is no easy route to connect back to Yonge Street. If you added a bunch of stations on Bay Street, it would be very expensive to build and then it wouldn't be be an express subway anymore.
 
Gary Benner P. Eng. said:
The problem with trying to use Bay Street is that it ends at Davenport Road and there is no easy route to connect back to Yonge Street.
Click to expand...
You have to break some eggs to make an omelette? Any large project should accept some degree of expropriation.
How about trying the other side of Yonge - Church Street?
Gary Benner P. Eng. said:
If you added a bunch of stations on Bay Street, it would be very expensive to build and then it wouldn't be be an express subway anymore.
Click to expand...
Agree with extra stations adding to costs - but I think stations close to everyones destination is a must.
There are two types of Express:
  1. Express through lower density areas (which this does through much of its lengths), and then regular stations where the density is (which this proposal omits).
  2. Express that stop at major stops and skips intermediate ones (something this proposal does not do since the major stops (King, Bloor, Eglinton, Sheppard) are not served due to complexity.
 
BurlOak said:
You have to break some eggs to make an omelette? Any large project should accept some degree of expropriation.
How about trying the other side of Yonge - Church Street?

Agree with extra stations adding to costs - but I think stations close to everyones destination is a must.
There are two types of Express:
  1. Express through lower density areas (which this does through much of its lengths), and then regular stations where the density is (which this proposal omits).
  2. Express that stop at major stops and skips intermediate ones (something this proposal does not do since the major stops (King, Bloor, Eglinton, Sheppard) are not served due to complexity.
Click to expand...

drive.google.com

Bay - Avenue - Bathurst line - Google My Maps

Bay - Avenue - Bathurst line
drive.google.com drive.google.com

Here is an omelet breaking suggestion. It runs close enough to Yonge to be a real relief. It spaced decently to be express. It goes to Union and other downtown stations. It is building a new tunnel serving new riders
What would be bad about this line?
 
micheal_can said:
drive.google.com

Bay - Avenue - Bathurst line - Google My Maps

Bay - Avenue - Bathurst line
drive.google.com drive.google.com

Here is an omelet breaking suggestion. It runs close enough to Yonge to be a real relief. It spaced decently to be express. It goes to Union and other downtown stations. It is building a new tunnel serving new riders
What would be bad about this line?
Click to expand...
Nothing - but how urgent is it? I am not a fan of an express Yonge subway - I was just working with the proposal to see if it can be improved.

That said;
  1. The 1st steps in Yonge relief are an extension of the Ontario Line to Finch (Seneca), or even farther.
  2. Next improved frequency on the RH-GO line.
  3. Then its to create a network that doesn't force everyone to transfer at Y-B. This includes; Having Scarborough Rapid transit directly accessing downtown, instead of forcing it onto the B-D Line. Creating multiple transfers from B-D (and Eglinton) to downtown (not just Y-B and St. George). Possible interlining of YUS and B-D to reduce transfers.
  4. When all this is exhausted, a Bathurst Line can be considered (although I have thought of keeping Bay Street open for the Queens Quay East and West LRT's to come up into the core).
1577722613276.png
 
BurlOak said:
Nothing - but how urgent is it? I am not a fan of an express Yonge subway - I was just working with the proposal to see if it can be improved.

That said;
  1. The 1st steps in Yonge relief are an extension of the Ontario Line to Finch (Seneca), or even farther.
  2. Next improved frequency on the RH-GO line.
  3. Then its to create a network that doesn't force everyone to transfer at Y-B. This includes; Having Scarborough Rapid transit directly accessing downtown, instead of forcing it onto the B-D Line. Creating multiple transfers from B-D (and Eglinton) to downtown (not just Y-B and St. George). Possible interlining of YUS and B-D to reduce transfers.
  4. When all this is exhausted, a Bathurst Line can be considered (although I have thought of keeping Bay Street open for the Queens Quay East and West LRT's to come up into the core).
View attachment 223124
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2050? Doug Ford can't think any further into future than June 2, 2022, the next election.
 
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