Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Steve Munro can't eat his Wheaties without having first spent 10 hours criticizing something someone is doing with transit. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he's insightful - mostly I find it annoying at this point (this project being entirely beside the point). Armchair engineer. Yawn.



This is silliness. So you're criticizing them for servicing transit riders? Isn't it implicit that people taking transit aren't taking cars? Build a new condo on Yonge. Don't put a subway there. How are people getting around? Bus or car, right? So if you build a subway, it's serving someone who would otherwise be taking a bus or a car?

And they ARE dealing with the root of the problem which is how we've built communities for the past 60-odd years. They're trying to build dense, transit-oriented development along corridors and in nodes so people in York Region - most of whom need cars - won't. You can challenge whether you think that will work or whatever, but to not understand how they're trying to alter a suburban built form is just wrong.

but by all means, let's criticize one of the few suburbs trying to promote transit and intensification.



It's true, so you're wrong again. Come stand at Yonge/Steeles from, say, 8 am to 11 am and count how many buses there are. You can literally stand anywhere along that corridor south of Finch and see 7 or 8 buses going north and south at any given time.

There's plenty to question amid the "propaganda," but this is a fact.



Say what now?



Oh, you did numbers. I see. I don't have my own numbers.



Erm....there are buses on Yonge right now, you know.
There will still be some local buses but not the almost-literal caravan that goes there now. Once you're done standing at Yonge/Steeles and counting buses, try driving in the right lanes for a while. Worst bus knuckles in town.



Riiiiight. Well, I count 6 lanes at this Google Streetview link.
Six in the CITY of Toronto. And six in the SUBURB of York Region.
But what's really funny is that if you do a 360 you can count SEVEN buses in view; exactly like I said.



Oooh, tough talk. So, we both know the DRL is never going to Steeles; Sheppard is the furthest anyone has suggested and that was Metrolinx, while Toronto was too far up its own ass dealing with Scarborough.

And if you're trying to help Toronto riders, you really should be screening people at Finch. Don't let any foreigners board the train until you know that there are downstream people have seats clear to Union. Or, you know, conveniently ignore the thousands of York Region riders always on the train and pretend they're not there, since you made them STUFF their subway.

(Also, you're wrong again. The issue is not capacity SOUTH of Bloor. The issue is capacity AT Bloor.)



By then we'll all have flying cars. Duh!
(No, we probably won't. It's still more likely than your second Yonge line.)

In conclusion - the propaganda may be stupid and a waste of taxpayer money. The extension is still the least stupid transit project being considered in the entire GTA save for RER and the DRL.
No issues with your position, but I have done bus and ridership at various point on Yonge to backup my numbers as well riding the buses. Have put them into a spreadsheet and used various model spite until 2040 to see what number would look like on opening day and until 2040.

In my presentation to TTC on the EA years ago, opening day numbers based on current ridership at the time, and using X cars going to Finch, 1,800 peak ridership was the best I could come up with.

My numbers were very close to Metrolinx number for 2031.

As I have stated, unless the DRL goes to Steeles, not going to help the Yonge line that much.

You think Bloor is the Capacity point, wait tell Crosstown opens, but the line is over capicity south of Bloor as well Eglinton now let alone going to Finch.

You can blame Toronto for a lot of the traffic issues at Steeles since they refused to build the ROW on Yonge that was to be built around 2008 that Miller wanted then.

You talk about York Buses on Yonge, yet you fail to count all the buses on Yonge from Steeles to Finch by all systems and far out weight York number by X factor, yet where is the bitching from local residents, business and the city???

Flying cars will be great as they will be all over the place and blocking the sunlight that buildings will not do. You will not see the sky because of these flying car and a good thing I will not be around to see it.
 
No issues with your position, but I have done bus and ridership at various point on Yonge to backup my numbers as well riding the buses. Have put them into a spreadsheet and used various model spite until 2040 to see what number would look like on opening day and until 2040.

*Sincerely, I believe you and don't have the skills to do the same.
Still, it's not as simple as that. Adding the subway - or even an LRT for that matter - fundamentally alters the travel patterns. And then there's the 50,000 new residents targeted for the Steeles-7 corridor over the next 20 years...

*As for the DRL, Metrolinx said Sheppard. And it's never going to Steeles. That would take decades. I know we're building Vaughan now and the Crosstown too but we build like 6 km of subway in the 20 preceding years. You're talking about something like 25km of subway. Even if you were right, it's a political unreality. The genie is out of the bottle.

*As for capacity, I KNOW Bloor is the capacity pinch point. It's a fact inherent to the design of the system.
Obviously the Crosstown will increase capacity from Eglinton. And yet no one whined and bitched about how all this new construction was fine and good but would overwhelm the system past the breaking point. That's as much a political reality as the fact people do say that about the Yonge extension.

*I don't blame Toronto for ditching the bus ROW because York Region did the same and, having followed that planning, the two municipalities were barely on the same page, even then. The BRT would have gone forward - literally the same week - if McGuinty hadn't prioritized the subway. To blame York Region for pouncing on that and planning around what they were promised is unfair, IMHO.

We talk all the time about transit capacity but never road capacity. I don't BLAME Toronto or York Region but the fact is that the intersection there is at capacity, even during many non-peak hours. That's not good for drivers or bus riders, even with the HOW lane.

*I'm not sure what you're talking about with the buses. The 2,500 a day includes buses only going from Steeles to Finch. I believe that number is every bus arriving at Finch Station from points north, be it TTC, GO or Viva/YRT. But it is a real number and easily observable. With a subway, that number would be done to virtually nothing; from all the transit agencies. Whether you care about greenhouse gases, efficient transit, roads that are actually level or something else, there's nothing good about it.

(And the systemic issue that should concern people, subway or no subway, fare integration or no fare integration is that YRT buses with room will leave "TTC" riders standing at the curb, even though they're all going to Finch. )The entire corridor functions amazingly inefficiently, by design.

Flying cars will be great as they will be all over the place and blocking the sunlight that buildings will not do. You will not see the sky because of these flying car and a good thing I will not be around to see it.

you have a more pessimistic view of the flying car than I do.
Who doesn't want flying cars?
 
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When the DRL goes to Sheppard, I'm not even sure a York subway on Yonge makes sense. It should go to the DRL on Don Mills directly from Richmond Hill.

@York Region: Any reason why you don't want to build yourself a subway?
  • You could have something similar like the New Jersey Path starting in Newark all the way to Manhattan. Richmond Hill Centre to DRL Station Don Mills & Sheppard?
  • Your trains would say York Region with your own colors :p
  • You could even expand your network to Vaughan and Markham...
  • Alright alright...if it must be on Yonge, perhaps you'll want to build an express path like in NYC
But who am I kidding...If they were ever told that they would assume 100% of the O&M and Toronto would be out of the construction costs, this project would be dead from the start :D

Think about it...You're own subway like the PATH

York Region...This could be you...if you assumed all the costs!:eek:

PATH_Kawasaki_5602c.jpg

PATH_836.JPG
 
But who am I kidding...If they were ever told that they would assume 100% of the O&M and Toronto would be out of the construction costs, this project would be dead from the start :D

Think about it...You're own subway like the PATH

York Region...This could be you...if you assumed all the costs!:eek:

If you think the Subway serving York Region will be losing swaths of money you're sorely mistaken, even the Steeles Buses are likely making bang off of York region riders. The city's subsidies are mostly to pay for underutilized routes, routes that only carry a few hundred passengers a day but have capacity for thousands. So this whole mentality that York paying for O&M is false since it would open the door for York to take a cut of the revenues from the line which wouldn't be funneled to the TTC's bottom line. It's like you believe the busiest and most successful transit line in the country is some endless black hole for money.

Take a look at this to get a bit of an idea of what the cost/revenue ratios are on some of Toronto's busiest routes: http://www.formerspatial.com/ttcincome
The data is patently incorrect as it assumes every rider = $3 of revenue without taking into account transfers. Based on these calculations Steeles East/West both make a profit.

If you're gonna harp on O&M for the subway please come to the table with actual facts instead of just going on about how it'll cost Toronto millions to operate a line in York Region. Everyone knows a bunch of riders who get on at finch or take the Steeles buses will get on either at Steeles or North of Steeles. What would you propose? York Region pay O&M and take all the revenue from all the stations north of Toronto? Fine, but that essentially cuts the existing revenue of Finch Station and funnels the money to York Region instead of Toronto to help pay for other routes. You can't ask for O&M and expect York Region not to take any of the revenue.

Edit: Changed profit to revenue
 
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If you think the Subway serving York Region will be losing swaths of money you're sorely mistaken, even the Steeles Buses are likely making bang off of York region riders. The city's subsidies are mostly to pay for underutilized routes, routes that only carry a few hundred passengers a day but have capacity for thousands. So this whole mentality that York paying for O&M is false since it would open the door for York to take a cut of the profits form the line which wouldn't be funneled to the TTC's bottom line. It's like you believe the busiest and most successful transit line in the country is some endless black hole for money.

Take a look at this to get a bit of an idea of what the cost/revenue ratios are on some of Toronto's busiest routes: http://www.formerspatial.com/ttcincome
The data is patently incorrect as it assumes every rider = $3 of revenue without taking into account transfers. Based on these calculations Steeles East/West both make a profit.

If you're gonna harp on O&M for the subway please come to the table with actual facts instead of just going on about how it'll cost Toronto millions to operate a line in York Region. Everyone knows a bunch of riders who get on at finch or take the Steeles buses will get on either at Steeles or North of Steeles. What would you propose? York Region pay O&M and take all the profit from all the stations north of Toronto? Fine, but that essentially cuts the existing profit of Finch Station and funnels the money to York Region instead of Toronto to help pay for other routes. You can't ask for O&M and expect York Region not to take any of the profits.

oh boy...you just compared bus operation to subway operations... Not sure I want to read the rest.
There are very few models in the world where subway operations turns a profit and TTC is light years away from being Hong Kong...

Example: Montreal Metro=60% (I think is provincial subsidies), the balance is split between the whole regional subsidies, City of Montreal subsidy and fares...
That`s a far better scenario then the TTC and Montreal is not turning a profit on its subway operations...let alone the TTC that gets nothing except from the city and the fares.
 
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oh boy...you just compared bus operation to subway operations... Not sure I want to read the rest.
There are very few models in the world where subway operations turns a profit and TTC is light years away from being Hong Kong...

I'm pretty sure I know who knows more in this tete-a-tete but, putting that aside, all you've got is MONEY. your entire argument is about MONEY. It's not about TRAVEL or TRANSPORTATION or RIDERSHIP. You don't care how people commute or go shopping or attend a baseball game. You just care about how your penny gets from point A to B.

By any objective measures it's utterly stupid for York Region to fund a SEPARATE subway, to run from Highway 7 to Steeles while Toronto (presumably) extends its own subway to Steeles. It's dumb in every way, except for MONEY.

Tou keep going on about the PATH as if New Jersey is similar to York Region or as if the above-grade subway you posted a picture of would ever make sense at Yonge and Steeles. And even if it did, your example is still misguided because it's not run by NEW JERSEY, it's run by the PORT AUTHORITY. That's what the name stands for! Don't you have access to Wikipedia? It's an INTERSTATE agency - that means both NY and NJ, as the name implies. You seem to think it's a local, municipal operation, since that's what you're proposing for York Region.

It isn't. But let me help you, from the Port Authority website:
The Port Authority is financially self-sustaining and must raise the monies necessary to operate its facilities and provide services to the public through tolls, fares, rentals and other user charges.

Does that sound comparable to York Region, a municipal government in Ontario with only the fare box and property tax base its financial sources? Do you have more pretty choo-choo pictures to post? Yeesh.

If you want to make arguments about how a subway to Highway 7 should be fairly funded, I'm right there with you. If you're going to propose transit ideas that actively discourage ridership and create a piecemeal mess instead of an integrated network (while citing a series of red herrings), I'm not.

FWIW, I'm perfectly good with BMO's idea of YR draining ridership from Finch, paying operating money but taking a all the parking and ridership revenue north of Steeles. When those Steeles buses are running empty, bereft of existing YR riders, and when the Finch parking lot is reduced to half its current occupancy - with no prospects to do anything else, because it's a hydro corridor - the deal might not seem so good. But if I worked at YR, I'd run it up the flagpole to, you know, help Toronto.

EDIT: I just saw on Twitter John Tory congratulating Milos Raonic. So nice to know that running a subway to Thornhill can't happen but he's still generous enough to claim credit for its athletes. Is there a line at Steeles or not? So hard to tell....
 
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Has there been any analysis of the impact the Eglinton Crosstown line will have on Yonge subway ridership? I would think many riders would take it west to the Spadina line and head south from there, as it should end up being faster (fewer stops and not as busy, so less dwell time at each station).
 
I'm pretty sure I know who knows more in this tete-a-tete but, putting that aside, all you've got is MONEY. your entire argument is about MONEY. It's not about TRAVEL or TRANSPORTATION or RIDERSHIP. You don't care how people commute or go shopping or attend a baseball game. You just care about how your penny gets from point A to B.

I do care about all the above...But the fact still remains...Many in Toronto can't do easily what you've just pointed out due to lack of transit. Since their taxes are paying for the TTC, it just makes sense that they get the service they pay for, not seeing their taxes financing services outside of the city they do not have themselves or can't use because it's overcrowded. It's about priorities and quite frankly, York subway is not a priority...(Subway-wise)

There are areas in Toronto that already have the ridership for a subway, fyi

By any objective measures it's utterly stupid for York Region to fund a SEPARATE subway, to run from Highway 7 to Steeles while Toronto (presumably) extends its own subway to Steeles. It's dumb in every way, except for MONEY.

What part of 'Yonge is at overcapacity you can't seem to understand'?
There's also something called ''Limited resources''. Explain to me why York region politicians are obsess at dumping riders on the Yonge line (Conveniently all getting a seat) without remotely caring about what happens south of Finch? Why aren't they talking about helping with the O&M on the line? Why is an alternate route isn't a viable option? Why are they lying and twisting the facts on the Yonge Line? Why are they being jerks about it? If the that subway is as justified as they claim, why aren't they building it to Steeles and operate it themselves?

Tou keep going on about the PATH as if New Jersey is similar to York Region or as if the above-grade subway you posted a picture of would ever make sense at Yonge and Steeles. And even if it did, your example is still misguided because it's not run by NEW JERSEY, it's run by the PORT AUTHORITY. That's what the name stands for! Don't you have access to Wikipedia? It's an INTERSTATE agency - that means both NY and NJ, as the name implies. You seem to think it's a local, municipal operation, since that's what you're proposing for York Region.

You should have read further. It started as a separate entity from NYC. I know what it is today. I always said if Metrolinx took the subway off Toronto's hands, you and I wouldn't be debating. Until they do, we'll keep debating. If the subway was so profitable as you claim, why hasn't Metrolinx stepped up already?

For decades, New Jersey politicians asked the Port Authority to operate the vital transit link, but Port Authority officials were reluctant to assume the money-losing operation, and New York politicians did not want extra Port Authority money spent in New Jersey.

The construction of the World Trade Center finally enabled the three parties to compromise. The Port Authority agreed to purchase and maintain the Tubes in return for the rights to build the World Trade Center on the land occupied by H&M's Hudson Terminal, which was the Lower Manhattan terminus of the Tubes.

In 1962, the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Company ceased operation of the Hudson Tubes, and service began through the Port Authority Trans-Hudson Corporation (PATH), a subsidiary organization of the Port Authority. Upon taking over the H&M Railroad, the Port Authority spent $70 million to modernize PATH's infrastructure.

During the 1980s, the PATH system experienced substantial growth in ridership, which meant the infrastructure needed expansion and rehabilitation. The Port Authority announced a plan in 1988 to upgrade the infrastructure so that stations on the Newark – WTC line could accommodate longer 8-car trains while 7-car trains could operate between Journal Square and 33rd Street.In August 1990, the Port Authority put forth a $1 billion plan to renovate the PATH stations and add new rail cars. To help provide revenue, the Port Authority installed video monitors in its stations that display advertising. At that time, the Port Authority incurred a $135 million deficit annually, which it sought to alleviate with a fare hike to reduce the per passenger subsidy. By 1992, the Port Authority had spent $900 million on infrastructure improvements, including track repairs, modernizing communications and signaling, new ventilation equipment, and installing elevators at most stations to accommodate the disabled. A new car maintenance facility was also added in Harrison, at a cost of $225 million.

Oh wait...operating a subway IS expensive...who would have thought?

It isn't. But let me help you, from the Port Authority website:

The Port Authority is financially self-sustaining and must raise the monies necessary to operate its facilities and provide services to the public through tolls, fares, rentals and other user charges.

Then why are you so quick to dismiss my Montreal example which is closer to our reality? Toronto doesn't have toll revenues nor other charges.

Does that sound comparable to York Region, a municipal government in Ontario with only the fare box and property tax base its financial sources? Do you have more pretty choo-choo pictures to post? Yeesh.

It's the same reality for Toronto, so why should the O&M be Toronto' sole responsibility?

If you want to make arguments about how a subway to Highway 7 should be fairly funded, I'm right there with you. If you're going to propose transit ideas that actively discourage ridership and create a piecemeal mess instead of an integrated network (while citing a series of red herrings), I'm not.

How is connecting to the DRL a bad idea? Why would it discourage ridership? It stops on the Sheppard Line, Crosstown, Bloor Line and ends on Queen?
Why is there an obsession with Yonge???

Another reason why I used the PATH, they didn't extend to dump riders at South Ferry on one of NYC busiest line. It actually does a good job at complementing Manhattan Network by stopping and terminating at key stations, avoiding pressuring the network.

Might not be you, but those York Region politicians are coming across as not giving a **** about what happens south of Steeles and that will certainly not help them in the long run. They can scream all they want, there won't be a subway there before 2041 (projected opening of DRL phase 2).

25 years!!! Just realized how old I'll be when it opens :eek:
 
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What part of 'Yonge is at overcapacity you can't seem to understand'?
There's also something called ''Limited resources''. Explain to me why York region politicians are obsess at dumping riders on the Yonge line (Conveniently all getting a seat) without remotely care about what happens south of Finch? Why aren't they talking about helping with the O&M on the line? Why is an alternate route isn't a viable option? Why are they lying and twisting the facts on the Yonge Line? Why are they being jerks about it? If the that subway is as justified as they claim, why aren't they building it to Steeles and operate it themselves?
Cobra this is the exact argument the rest of Toronto has against the Scarborough Subway. I'm glad you can see it when you don't have a horse in the race. Thank you.
 
This is what I have been saying all along that the Yonge Line will need a 2nd line to handle all the new development plan for it by 2050 before thinking going into York. This on top of building the DRL and RER

Yonge St. corridor can’t handle more development
 
This is what I have been saying all along that the Yonge Line will need a 2nd line to handle all the new development plan for it by 2050 before thinking going into York. This on top of building the DRL and RER

Yonge St. corridor can’t handle more development
Couldn't they achieve the same thing by building an Avenue road line? People can easily walk from Yonge to Avenue Road if they live at yonge.
 

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Cobra this is the exact argument the rest of Toronto has against the Scarborough Subway. I'm glad you can see it when you don't have a horse in the race. Thank you.

1st: Scarborough is Toronto
2nd: Scarborough pay taxes to the city
3rd:This is a political mess caused by politicians, not Scarborough residents. Right now, what will get built is a subway. Which one makes more sense? 1 stop or 3 stops?

PS: I always claimed that replacing the SRT with Mk.III trains was the best thing to do. Complete shutdown might not be necessary and it's easier to extend. Part of the proposed extension was going underground before reaching Sheppard.
(Killed by Miller because he wanted his pet project Transit City, higher Cost than what the TTC wanted to do...talk about misuse of limited funds...right?)

2nd best option: SRT merged with Eglinton Crosstown using Skytrain
(Was never considered because the ridership was underestimated to fit LRT while Skytrain would have been the best use with the available funds) Neptis Report

3rd best option: SRT merged with Eglinton Crosstown using LRT
(Was killed by Anti-Ford Councillors and ambitious Stinz with dreams of being Mayor...To think that Scarborough had accepted this project, yes LRT on the SRT route...Don`t you think that being connected to the rest of the city might be what people care about the most? More so then technology?)

4th best option: 3 stop Subway
(Killing the MOU opened the door to this.)

5th option: 1 stop option
(This is crazy)

Hope I clarified my position Six
 
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This is what I have been saying all along that the Yonge Line will need a 2nd line to handle all the new development plan for it by 2050 before thinking going into York. This on top of building the DRL and RER

Yonge St. corridor can’t handle more development

This line of thinking makes no sense.

Halt development on Yonge? Don't we want more people living in areas like this? This goes against everything the Ontario government is promoting in its future Environmental plans.

Or do we want more people moving to the outer suburbs and driving into the city?

Besides, this idea will put even more pressure on our already insane Real Estate market.
 
1st: Scarborough is Toronto
2nd: Scarborough pay taxes to the city
3rd:This is a political mess caused by politicians, not Scarborough residents. Right now, what will get built is a subway. Which one makes more sense? 1 stop or 3 stops?

PS: I always claimed that replacing the SRT with Mk.III trains was the best thing to do. Complete shutdown might not be necessary and it's easier to extend. Part of the proposed extension was going underground before reaching Sheppard.
(Killed by Miller because he wanted his pet project Transit City, higher Cost than what the TTC wanted to do...talk about misuse of limited funds...right?)

2nd best option: SRT merged with Eglinton Crosstown using Skytrain
(Was never considered because the ridership was underestimated to fit LRT while Skytrain would have been the best use with the available funds) Neptis Report

3rd best option: SRT merged with Eglinton Crosstown using LRT
(Was killed by Anti-Ford Councillors and ambitious Stinz with dreams of being Mayor...To think that Scarborough had accepted this project, yes LRT on the SRT route...Don`t you think that being connected to the rest of the city might be what people care about the most? More so then technology?)

4th best option: 3 stop Subway
(Killing the MOU opened the door to this.)

5th option: 1 stop option
(This is crazy)

Hope I clarified my position Six
Well cobra you and I have the exact same list. Although I think scarbrough residents made an uproar and forced the politicians hands.. But otherwise I agree with your list.
 
Couldn't they achieve the same thing by building an Avenue road line? People can easily walk from Yonge to Avenue Road if they live at yonge.

If anything I'd think Bathurst would make more sense considering the density and demographics along the corridor. Avenue Rd doesn't strike me as a crowd that is going to take transit very often.
 

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