Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

nfitz said:
That is how much that is currently under construction with the 12.5 km piece of grade-separated Eglinton line between Mount Dennis and Don Mills and the 8.5 km of the Spadina subway extension currently under extension. (Sure, Eglinton isn't using the same subway trains ... but it's costing as much as one underground, with the larger TBMs).
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Technically, this is correct. However, building the second set of tracks in the existing Yonge corridor (under the existing tunnel?) will likely be more expensive than building the same length of new tunnels elsewhere. The downtown section will be particularly challenging, due to the PATH and numerous utilities.

Also, it is hard to expect both new downtown subways (DRL Don Mills and Yonge Express) being funded in the near future, while other areas are crying for transit improvements. If we can have only one new subway into downtown, then DRL via East York is of greater benefit, as it increases both the capacity and the area coverage. Yonge Express will improve capacity and speed, but will not add more coverage.
 
Irishmonk said:
I've been nurturing nearly the exact same fanstasy for nearly a decade now, but have never shared it with anyone--until now. A separate Yonge Express Line would be the single greatest piece of infrastructure ever built for this city and combined with a DRL would solve most of our transit problems for generations. My version would have stations at R Hill, Hwy 7, Steeles, Shepherd, Eglinton, Bloor and Union/King...
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It's not just cost. This is actually a pretty redundant idea.

Yonge is already reasonably fast (comparable to NYC's express trains), so there's no particular need to create a supplementary parallel service

The easier solution to overcrowding would always be to created alternative routes. Especially since most North Yonge riders are transfers, alternative radial routes would provide just as much relief.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
The ONLY reason to hesitate, as far as I'm concerned, is the downstream capacity issues that need to be resolved concurrently.
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I believe that this is not just a "reason to hesitate", but a show-stopper. Operational integrity of the existing network must take precedence over any growth plans, and such integrity cannot be secured if more riders are added to the system without a matching new downtown capacity being added.

True, it is not York Region's fault that Toronto dragged its feet on downtown subways. Nevertheless, TTC is not legally required to support any growth plans of York Region; hence it cannot be forced to operate a new subway section which will completely mess up the downtown base.

Short-turning every 2-nd train, or even 4 out of 5 trains, at Finch will not help. The capacity shortage will not be at Finch, it will be at Eglinton and at Bloor. It matters little how the riders from north of Steeles and from the northern part of 416 are distributed between the trains; the capacity at Eglinton and further south will be insufficient anyway.

It is OK to build DRL and then Yonge North extension, or to build them simultaneously; it is not OK to start Yonge North without DRL.
 
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Rainforest said:
True, it is not York Region's fault that Toronto dragged its feet on downtown subways. Nevertheless, TTC is not legally required to support any growth plans of York Region; hence it cannot be forced to operate a new subway section which will completely mess up the downtown base.
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It is OK to build DRL and then Yonge North extension, or to build them simultaneously; it is not OK to start Yonge North without DRL.
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I'm all for your latter scenario. It just seems crazy to ask York Region to wait (and, hey, it's not like there aren't 2 stops in Toronto too!) given the work they've done. I think as soon are there is $, Metrolinx should approve both projects with work starting on Yonge first, because it's effectively shovel ready. Maybe someone here knows how far away Toronto is from starting the TPAP for the DRL....But they don't care what I think, anyway.

As to your first point, however, that's incorrect. Every municipality in the GTA is legally obligated to follow the provincial growth plan. So, York Region's OP conforms to it and so does Toronto's. It may not be Toronto's obligation to assist York Region's conformity, and one could go on at length about how various provincial ministries don't seem entirely in sync with the growth plan as well, but the province COULD effectively force Toronto's hand by funding one project and not the other. It's THEIR growth plan, not York Region's and, for better or worse, they run the show, planningwise and dollarwise.
 
diminutive said:
The easier solution to overcrowding would always be to created alternative routes. Especially since most North Yonge riders are transfers, alternative radial routes would provide just as much relief.
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This. I'm all for the long-fabled North Yonge extension, but in the real world, isn't it more achievable to spend the money on north-south routes that would offload the Yonge line? Significantly increase the frequency, and significantly increase the physical and fare connectivity to the TTC, of the Barrie (south part) and RH GO lines. Cobble together a Bathurst LRT. I don't know. Point being, there are lots of possible non-subway projects that would offload the Yonge line and improve services through additional routes at the same time.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
I'm all for your latter scenario. It just seems crazy to ask York Region to wait (and, hey, it's not like there aren't 2 stops in Toronto too!) given the work they've done. I think as soon are there is $, Metrolinx should approve both projects with work starting on Yonge first, because it's effectively shovel ready. Maybe someone here knows how far away Toronto is from starting the TPAP for the DRL....But they don't care what I think, anyway.

As to your first point, however, that's incorrect. Every municipality in the GTA is legally obligated to follow the provincial growth plan. So, York Region's OP conforms to it and so does Toronto's. It may not be Toronto's obligation to assist York Region's conformity, and one could go on at length about how various provincial ministries don't seem entirely in sync with the growth plan as well, but the province COULD effectively force Toronto's hand by funding one project and not the other. It's THEIR growth plan, not York Region's and, for better or worse, they run the show, planningwise and dollarwise.
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"Every municipality in the GTA is legally obligated to follow the provincial growth plan", that probably applies to decisions on zoning and infrastructure made within each municipality. It would be a stretch to require one municipality to build or operate a transit line into another, based on this principle.

It is correct that Toronto will benefit from Yonge North extension, too, by removing the huge number of buses currently running between Steeles and Finch. However, if it becomes impossible to operate the downtown section of Yonge line in any reasonable manner during the rush hours, that will be a major problem system-wise, and overweight any local advantages.

If I was on TTC board or in the City council, and the funding for Yonge North was offered without DRL funding, I would launch an independent study of the downtown operation with all new feeds in place. If such study confirms that the downtown operation will be all messed up, I would refuse to cooperate on Yonge North. That would force the province to either fund DRL, or take over the TTC's subway operation and thus bear the responsibility for its messed-up state in the near future (and I suspect that the provincial government will not take a chance with the latter).
 
Disparishun said:
This. I'm all for the long-fabled North Yonge extension, but in the real world, isn't it more achievable to spend the money on north-south routes that would offload the Yonge line? Significantly increase the frequency, and significantly increase the physical and fare connectivity to the TTC, of the Barrie (south part) and RH GO lines. Cobble together a Bathurst LRT. I don't know. Point being, there are lots of possible non-subway projects that would offload the Yonge line and improve services through additional routes at the same time.
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Easier said than done. Barrie GO will have very little impact on Yonge subway, as most of riders who can take the Barrie line, currently use Spadina subway rather than Yonge. Better Barrie service will likely divert some riders from Spadina subway and attract some completely new riders, but hardly anyone will be diverted from Yonge.

Bathurst LRT cannot go all the way into downtown, as Bathurst has no space for LRT lanes south of Wilson. Supposedly you can build LRT along the northern section of Bathurst and feed it into Wilson station on the Spadina subway, thus diverting some riders from Yonge. But I would not expect the number of riders diverted from Yonge to exceed 1,000 pphpd; while the total downtown capacity shortage is likely to be in the 5,000 - 7,000 pphpd range.

RH GO line can potentially offer significant relief, as well as the Stouffville (Lincolnville) line. Both those lines run east of Yonge, where the riders traveling downtown currently have little other option but to take a bus, or Danforth subway, and transfer to Yonge. If those GO lines diverted 3,000 pphpd each, that could solve the problem, at least in the short term. Unfortunately, such solution has a number of issues on its own: the Union station capacity, and the corridor width along the Stouffville line that makes it difficult / expensive to add the second track. Resolving those issues might incur costs that are not much lower than the cost of DRL Phase I; and if so, then DRL Phase I is arguably a better investment as the relief it provides (up to 30,000 pphpd or even more) will last for much longer.
 
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Rainforest said:
If I was on TTC board or in the City council, and the funding for Yonge North was offered without DRL funding, I would launch an independent study of the downtown operation with all new feeds in place. If such study confirms that the downtown operation will be all messed up, I would refuse to cooperate on Yonge North. That would force the province to either fund DRL, or take over the TTC's subway operation and thus bear the responsibility for its messed-up state in the near future (and I suspect that the provincial government will not take a chance with the latter).
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I agree completely. The Yonge extension should be funded, built and completed ASAP. But the TTC should not service those stations until the current DRL (Pape-Downtown-Dundas West/Keele/High Park) is complete. At that point the TTC can reevaluate the situation to see if operating the Yonge extension would be a viable option. If not then simply leave the new stations out of service until the DRL is extended to Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch or Hwy 7 to relieve capacity issues.

Doing this won't please anyone, but the fact of the matter is that this extension should not open under any circumstances if there are capacity issues further south on the line. Especially when we will have the Eglinton Crosstown feeding an additional 15,000 people onto Yonge.
 
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Rainforest said:
I believe that this is not just a "reason to hesitate", but a show-stopper. Operational integrity of the existing network must take precedence over any growth plans, and such integrity cannot be secured if more riders are added to the system without a matching new downtown capacity being added.

True, it is not York Region's fault that Toronto dragged its feet on downtown subways. Nevertheless, TTC is not legally required to support any growth plans of York Region; hence it cannot be forced to operate a new subway section which will completely mess up the downtown base.

Short-turning every 2-nd train, or even 4 out of 5 trains, at Finch will not help. The capacity shortage will not be at Finch, it will be at Eglinton and at Bloor. It matters little how the riders from north of Steeles and from the northern part of 416 are distributed between the trains; the capacity at Eglinton and further south will be insufficient anyway.

It is OK to build DRL and then Yonge North extension, or to build them simultaneously; it is not OK to start Yonge North without DRL.
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As a practical matter, the TTC would surely agree to operate trains along the full line if the Yonge extension was approved and built.

Assuming no DRL, Toronto could theoretically try to block Yonge before funding was finalized, but that would place Toronto in the position of opposing York Region, Queen's Park and Ottawa, and saying no to at least $2 billion. I don't see a majority of Council ever going that route.
 
GenerationW said:
As a practical matter, the TTC would surely agree to operate trains along the full line if the Yonge extension was approved and built.

Assuming no DRL, Toronto could theoretically try to block Yonge before funding was finalized, but that would place Toronto in the position of opposing York Region, Queen's Park and Ottawa, and saying no to at least $2 billion. I don't see a majority of Council ever going that route.
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Operational integrity of the system is a serious matter. The situation here is different from TYSSE. TYSSE was not the TTC's first choice, but it did not put the existing operation in any kind of risk. Therefore, TTC agreed to get on board since the province wanted it.

In contrast, Yonge North will compromise the existing operation if not accompanied by adequate relief.

Furthermore, Ottawa will not lean on other stakeholders. At most, they will offer a portion of funding. If other stakeholders cannot come to a consensus, Ottawa will happily stay out of the matter.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
The Yonge extension should be funded, built and completed ASAP. But the TTC should not service those stations until the current DRL (Pape-Downtown-Dundas West/Keele/High Park) is complete. At that point the TTC can reevaluate the situation to see if operating the Yonge extension would be a viable option. If not then simply leave the new stations out of service until the DRL is extended to Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch or Hwy 7 to relieve capacity issues.

Doing this won't please anyone, but the fact of the matter is that this extension should not open under any circumstances if there are capacity issues further south on the line. Especially when we will have the Eglinton Crosstown feeding an additional 15,000 people onto Yonge.
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Yes, this is one of the options.

I would think that if DRL reaches downtown in the south and Eglinton in the east, it will provide enough relief to make the Yonge North extension feasible. Yonge line will of course remain busy, but still operable.

Extending DRL west of downtown and north of Eglinton will have additional advantages, serving the growing density along Queen W and King W, and improving transit in the north-eastern corner of 416. However, those two extensions are not tightly coupled with Yonge North.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
I don't agree. We have to do something for those areas. Especially Finch West.
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It's true. You can't neglect those suburban areas with overcrowded and poor bus service just like you can't neglect the overcrowded subway downtown. Both the suburban LRT lines and the new downtown-to-suburbs subway are needed, not just desirable. We have to address what's really needed in terms of transit by all means necessary for a functional transit system across the city.
 
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