raptor
Senior Member
They only erect steel in the York moat at night. During the day, the walkway underneath it is open. I suspect the same will happen on the Bay st side.
Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR
TOareaFan
Superstar
Yes it is a short path portion.....I would not describe it as "almost unused" but it certainly is well below capacity.....it is too bad because the one intersection it bypasses is one of those multi-cycle intersections where, if your timing is just a bit off, you can be standing there for a long time.....I use the tunnel every time to bypass the wait/confusion at that intersection and you would have a hard time convincing me I am not saving time 75% of the time.
Isotack
Active Member
There is plenty of shelter space. You can't make mental patients use it. As for moving them along...no way is anybody going to do that! They don't do it in any other public realm in this city and they won't here. Parks, sidewalks or NPS... Bring on the homeless winter camp on the glass roof which is exactly what I saw last winter.
Isotack
Active Member
They were sleeping on the completed part last winter...nobody did a thing
The space below is not in use yet. I cannot imagine that would continue once the moat below opens.
42
holographic plastic
Active Member
Why exactly would homeless people want to sleep on a cold glass roof in the winter?
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Hidden in plain sight -- they're left alone and aren't kicked/harassed/verbally abused. When sleeping just behind the edgewall & the moat is closed for construction -- people can't see them. So it's very secluded like sleeping in the forest.
A big winter-rated sleeping bag and glass doesn't matter.
steveintoronto
Superstar
With raw fluorescents?
That's something the Brits and some others used to do, ostensibly for economy, but North Am practice has always been to use diffuser covers.
There's also the safety aspect too, as fluorescent bulbs are easy to break by accident. Perhaps these bulbs have been sleeved with a plastic tube?
For a project that claims to put emphasis on lighting quality and ostensibly safety, I'm more than a little perplexed that solid state solutions weren't used. I'm absolutely no fan of LED lighting in many cases (DC run LEDs work well for intense needs, like a flashlight, etc) but nude fluorescents can be almost as harsh as LEDs if run AC, as they also 'flicker' intensely to the point of being able to be used as a modulated carrier. (sound can be transmitted by them, for instance, although the luminescent dwell of the excited phosphour limits it to lower audible frequencies)
Is Office Lighting Affecting Your Vision? | Blink Eye Care
https://blinkcharlotte.com/newsletter-library/is-office-lighting-affecting-your-vision/
It is possible that they've used TLEDs:
Westinghouse Linear TLED Light Bulbs
Energy Saving, Environmentally Conscious, Long Life
- Up to 56% energy savings over linear fluorescents - instant savings!
- Mercury-free LEDs lower disposal costs and are an environmentally-friendly choice.
- Last over 50,000 hours! Up to 2.5 times longer life reduces maintenance costs.
- 11 years (based on 12 hrs./day)
- Turn on instantly to full brightness, no flickering.
- Optimized general illumination - excellent light distribution, no wasted light inside the fixture.
- Delivers comparable light levels to linear fluorescent.
- Available in a variety of color temperatures - 3500K, 4000K and 5000K.
- Glass tube has the familiar look of linear fluorescent bulbs.
http://www.westinghouselighting.com/linear-tled-light-bulbs.aspx
But the end result as shown in the pics in this string is very harsh unless diffused, which won't eliminate it, but will markedly reduce it.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Colour temp and diffusion are two very different lighting aspects.
- : Google search for "importance of diffusing light in halls and large spaces"
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Most TLEDs neglect CRI, falling around CRI 80 or 83 which is ho-hum. Or egads, CRI 70*shudder*. Let's not forget the much-maligned CRI, the Color Rendering Index -- which can make a space look tons better (improved colors, much better looking skins, more palatable-looking food while you're eating your snack in the concourse), by a simple change to a more expensive LED bulb with a higher CRI while simultaneously having a much more tamed spectrum curve. Many common cool white tubes often have a CRI 70 and compact fluorescents used to be that till they hit CRI 80-ish.
Today, my house mostly uses PWM-free (flickefree) CRI90-93 LED bulbs -- some that apparently now has full dim range (thru to 0% with zero flicker) and I've seen work on CRI95-98 though haven't seen certified bulbs (i.e. not false-chinese-labelled) for comparision. So LED can be so much better than 99% of LED bulbs.
Power efficiency is lower than common garden variety CRI80 LED (the bulbs you buy in Canadian Tire), but, hell, still more efficient than fluorescent. Cheap CRI90+ are found at IKEA for about three dollars or so (in packs), if you look carefully and catch them when they tend to cost ten dollars elsewhere (in the day of dollar LED light bulbs barely better than CFL). We're kinda getting offtopic, but I know you, steve, are quite critical of LED. However, well-chosen LED is still a massive improvement over incandescent, fluorescent, and average LED.
So to minimize stress on Union visitors, I would admonish Union Station revitalizaiton to:
(A) Certify at CRI of any future LED installs
(B) Verify PWM-free (capacitors/DC dimming/ideally AC-DC switching frequencies well in excess of audible spectrum, eg. 20KHz+)
(C) Proper diffusion
Especially for any LED they use for the Great Hall. They currently use HID there, so almost any properly engineered LED is an improvement as long as the sources don't become more point-source, or properly diffused. Unfiltered AC LED can be worse flicker than HID, but even minor capacitored LED blows away HID in flicker, not to say of delightfully proper 20KHz+ DC conversion. (Although I am not bothered, I can see PWM flicker up to approximately 2KHz -- via saccades / phantom array effect.
Proper solid-state fluorescent ballasts now use 20KHz not just because of beyond audio detection but also because lighting studies show people can see fluorescent-tube PWM flicker up to 10 KHz via the wagonwheel stroboscopic effects that suddenly happen via eye saccades. Although wagonwheel effects has no upper limit (One can see 1 MHz wagonwheel effect, if wheel spins fast enough), the phosphor decay defines the fadepoint of stroboscopic detectability of wagonwheel/stroboscopic effects. Like flitting your eyes across fine wallpaper or tile patterns under very bright lights, and it doesn't naturally motionblur under 10 KHz PWM because the repeating pattern matched stationary positions of flashes. Or flitting eyes past point sources. Thus the recommendation for 20 KHz to go beyond easy stroboscopic detection thresholds all the way down to phosphor persistence -- as well as audio spectrum issues, especially for young/teens who hear higher pitch sounds like coil whine).
While I have fun (literally and derisvely, stroboscopic-effect-inducing pun-intended) "roll my eyes" at those unfiltered 120Hz-PWM-flickering LEDs from cheap chinese manufacturers, especially custom proprietary bulbs that can't be replaced when the manufacturer dies -- and the difficulty in perfect color temp/CRI matching across multiple vendors during bulb replacements -- I love properly engineered LED though, practically as good as incandescent (For my eyes anyway), though others may be much more sensitive to CRI imperfecgtions.
LED talk tends to drag on here, and has been moderated around here, so I'll steer the topic back. (Though lighting revitalization is an important subtopic of Union revitalization -- a crap LED can spoil renovated architectural aesthetic)
Any news on when they plan to finish Great Hall chandeliers?
Today, my house mostly uses PWM-free (flickefree) CRI90-93 LED bulbs -- some that apparently now has full dim range (thru to 0% with zero flicker) and I've seen work on CRI95-98 though haven't seen certified bulbs (i.e. not false-chinese-labelled) for comparision. So LED can be so much better than 99% of LED bulbs.
Power efficiency is lower than common garden variety CRI80 LED (the bulbs you buy in Canadian Tire), but, hell, still more efficient than fluorescent. Cheap CRI90+ are found at IKEA for about three dollars or so (in packs), if you look carefully and catch them when they tend to cost ten dollars elsewhere (in the day of dollar LED light bulbs barely better than CFL). We're kinda getting offtopic, but I know you, steve, are quite critical of LED. However, well-chosen LED is still a massive improvement over incandescent, fluorescent, and average LED.
So to minimize stress on Union visitors, I would admonish Union Station revitalizaiton to:
(A) Certify at CRI of any future LED installs
(B) Verify PWM-free (capacitors/DC dimming/ideally AC-DC switching frequencies well in excess of audible spectrum, eg. 20KHz+)
(C) Proper diffusion
Especially for any LED they use for the Great Hall. They currently use HID there, so almost any properly engineered LED is an improvement as long as the sources don't become more point-source, or properly diffused. Unfiltered AC LED can be worse flicker than HID, but even minor capacitored LED blows away HID in flicker, not to say of delightfully proper 20KHz+ DC conversion. (Although I am not bothered, I can see PWM flicker up to approximately 2KHz -- via saccades / phantom array effect.
Proper solid-state fluorescent ballasts now use 20KHz not just because of beyond audio detection but also because lighting studies show people can see fluorescent-tube PWM flicker up to 10 KHz via the wagonwheel stroboscopic effects that suddenly happen via eye saccades. Although wagonwheel effects has no upper limit (One can see 1 MHz wagonwheel effect, if wheel spins fast enough), the phosphor decay defines the fadepoint of stroboscopic detectability of wagonwheel/stroboscopic effects. Like flitting your eyes across fine wallpaper or tile patterns under very bright lights, and it doesn't naturally motionblur under 10 KHz PWM because the repeating pattern matched stationary positions of flashes. Or flitting eyes past point sources. Thus the recommendation for 20 KHz to go beyond easy stroboscopic detection thresholds all the way down to phosphor persistence -- as well as audio spectrum issues, especially for young/teens who hear higher pitch sounds like coil whine).
While I have fun (literally and derisvely, stroboscopic-effect-inducing pun-intended) "roll my eyes" at those unfiltered 120Hz-PWM-flickering LEDs from cheap chinese manufacturers, especially custom proprietary bulbs that can't be replaced when the manufacturer dies -- and the difficulty in perfect color temp/CRI matching across multiple vendors during bulb replacements -- I love properly engineered LED though, practically as good as incandescent (For my eyes anyway), though others may be much more sensitive to CRI imperfecgtions.
LED talk tends to drag on here, and has been moderated around here, so I'll steer the topic back. (Though lighting revitalization is an important subtopic of Union revitalization -- a crap LED can spoil renovated architectural aesthetic)
Any news on when they plan to finish Great Hall chandeliers?
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steveintoronto
Superstar
I think lighting is an essential topic.
I could go into the theories of 'interference sums and products' but I'm headed down to 'Onion' Station shortly, and will take a look. A lot of stations and halls in the developed world have done intensive studies on lighting. It's not like this should be rocket science...
Here's one of the major problems with the 'nude' 'fluorescent bulbs' (pic in VIA concourse posted prior) beyond even the nature of of its generation:
Indeed, for what it's cost to do Union, why skimp on a few thousand $ to make it not only look good, but *be* good for the eyes and health.
That was going to be my way to test the light in the VIA concourse for 'AC' or 'filtered DC', move spread fingers rapidly across my vision in front the "fluorescent" bulbs. The human psyche is capable of discerning phenomena beyond the physical capabilities of the organs needed to sense them. (Rather than my explaining 'light', Google 'artificial bass', formerly known as 'synthetic bass' for how the brain deduces missing audio products) Hearing is especially true of that and easier to describe. I won't labour the point, save to say lighting can affect people far more than many realize. And 'harshness' is an immediate alarm that something is amiss that can be very easily fixed in most if not all cases.
I could go into the theories of 'interference sums and products' but I'm headed down to 'Onion' Station shortly, and will take a look. A lot of stations and halls in the developed world have done intensive studies on lighting. It's not like this should be rocket science...
Here's one of the major problems with the 'nude' 'fluorescent bulbs' (pic in VIA concourse posted prior) beyond even the nature of of its generation:
http://www.northgatelighting.co.uk/what-is-ugr/
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mdrejhon
Senior Member
While I wasn't looking for it, at least it definitely isn't 120Hz PWM. I notice that *immediately* the first time I stare directly at a bulb and then flit my eyes away. So VIA concourse is either >120Hz PWM or is PWM-free.
I'll need to revisit and see if these are PWM free in my detection envelope.
I'll need to revisit and see if these are PWM free in my detection envelope.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
https://theconversation.com/the-sci...ed-bulbs-and-the-simple-way-to-fix-them-81639
I'm unfamiliar with your use of "PWM"...it denotes 'Pulse Width Modulation'...or *chopping* as it's colloquially known from my end (electronic tech). Do you mean 'Pulse Rate'?
steveintoronto
Superstar
I was just through Onion a couple of hours ago and little time to catch my train to Nirvana, but took a close look at the lights in the VIA concourse (And I would have had more time if it had been indicated that I could walk right through to Platform 25 instead of going back, up ramp, through the GO York concourse and down again to get to what turns out to be the other end of the horrific VIA tunnel of visual torture). God help the poor tourist when even seasoned users of Onion don't know which way to peel it.
And here's the 'Tunnel of Torture": ("Glare Centrale" en français)
I had very little time to test the light characteristics, but the actual 'bulbs' are of 'fluorescent *SlimLine* configuration', button end:
Apparently DC fed, absolutely no sign of 'strobing' that I could find (didn't have time to use my tuning meter to 'beat' against the light, I have a Peterson tuner) and the 'tubes' are sleeved in a strange way with an open slit on the bottom side of most of the length of the sleeve.
My immediate question is: "Is there adequate UV protection?" below that slit. Ostensibly the plastic sleeve that encases most of the tube is a UV filter.
But before getting too deep into the physics and electronics at play, just look at the end product: I've seen welding shops lit up with better distributed light than this!
Do you wear glasses? Good freakin' luck not squinting to see through the reflections on your glasses. I wear wire rim glasses, and even though the lense edges are partially encased, each time I walked under one of those lights, it flashed through the entire lens edgewise. Blinding!
Really made me relax and want to shop. Not.
"Heritage" You betcha...just like Ford's Model T factories with raw light bulbs hanging from the ceiling. This looks just fffing awful!
Example, except this has fascinating machines to toy with, but the same blinding raw light:
Now the good news: The supply and fixtures are all in place to add *baffles* and "diffusers"...and with a slight loss of overall brightness, but a huge improvement in *visibility*: Fibre optic distribution for the light sources, or even edge lit panels that work the same way, moulded to deliver the light in gentle ways can be added. Is this meant to be a Soviet Tractor Factory basement, or a place of positive interchange and commerce?
All my cynical concerns of how Onion was going to botch the lighting were with merit it seems. I would have posted pics taken directly of the lights to show mechanical detail save that they were all saturated from the highly concentrated light source...
And here's the 'Tunnel of Torture": ("Glare Centrale" en français)
I had very little time to test the light characteristics, but the actual 'bulbs' are of 'fluorescent *SlimLine* configuration', button end:
Apparently DC fed, absolutely no sign of 'strobing' that I could find (didn't have time to use my tuning meter to 'beat' against the light, I have a Peterson tuner) and the 'tubes' are sleeved in a strange way with an open slit on the bottom side of most of the length of the sleeve.
My immediate question is: "Is there adequate UV protection?" below that slit. Ostensibly the plastic sleeve that encases most of the tube is a UV filter.
But before getting too deep into the physics and electronics at play, just look at the end product: I've seen welding shops lit up with better distributed light than this!
Do you wear glasses? Good freakin' luck not squinting to see through the reflections on your glasses. I wear wire rim glasses, and even though the lense edges are partially encased, each time I walked under one of those lights, it flashed through the entire lens edgewise. Blinding!
Really made me relax and want to shop. Not.
"Heritage" You betcha...just like Ford's Model T factories with raw light bulbs hanging from the ceiling. This looks just fffing awful!
Example, except this has fascinating machines to toy with, but the same blinding raw light:
Now the good news: The supply and fixtures are all in place to add *baffles* and "diffusers"...and with a slight loss of overall brightness, but a huge improvement in *visibility*: Fibre optic distribution for the light sources, or even edge lit panels that work the same way, moulded to deliver the light in gentle ways can be added. Is this meant to be a Soviet Tractor Factory basement, or a place of positive interchange and commerce?
All my cynical concerns of how Onion was going to botch the lighting were with merit it seems. I would have posted pics taken directly of the lights to show mechanical detail save that they were all saturated from the highly concentrated light source...
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pstogios
Senior Member
It seems this project is taking forever. I’ve basically put it out of my mind that it will end any time soon.
What was the original estimate for total project duration and what is the current estimate for time to completion?
I didn’t have success in finding these answers when searching through this thread.
What was the original estimate for total project duration and what is the current estimate for time to completion?
I didn’t have success in finding these answers when searching through this thread.