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[dowlingm]

Drum118: what does CP own south of WTD? I thought it was just Milton to the west, North Toronto to the east and MacTier to the north?

 

[drum118]

Drum118: what does CP own south of WTD? I thought it was just Milton to the west, North Toronto to the east and MacTier to the north?

I have heard a few different stories regarding the Milton line and which one is true, I don't know.

The know CP Galt Sub starts at Bathurst St and have never heard anything about it being turn over to CN over the years or sold to Metrolinx.

CP track crews only call the line the Galt sub where the block signals are and where the line joints CP main line at the Junction. I asked that question to CP crews during the bridge movements and the answer I was given.

The only reason I can think of why CP hasn't sold those track is to get around any problems on the Toronto North Sub and making money off GO.

Dan would be the best one to answer the question.

 

[officedweller]

Found on twitter:

and another from the same poster:

http://instagram.com/p/tnwpcNxxLd/

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I have heard a few different stories regarding the Milton line and which one is true, I don't know.

The know CP Galt Sub starts at Bathurst St and have never heard anything about it being turn over to CN over the years or sold to Metrolinx.

CP track crews only call the line the Galt sub where the block signals are and where the line joints CP main line at the Junction. I asked that question to CP crews during the bridge movements and the answer I was given.

The only reason I can think of why CP hasn't sold those track is to get around any problems on the Toronto North Sub and making money off GO.

Dan would be the best one to answer the question.

I know I have heard that the 'Lower Galt' has been sold to Metrolinx, over in CPTDB. I'd like to hear details from Dan too, but if you look at the track ownership map on the Mx site, it shows it being owned by them up to WTD.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I have heard a few different stories regarding the Milton line and which one is true, I don't know.

The know CP Galt Sub starts at Bathurst St and have never heard anything about it being turn over to CN over the years or sold to Metrolinx.

CP track crews only call the line the Galt sub where the block signals are and where the line joints CP main line at the Junction. I asked that question to CP crews during the bridge movements and the answer I was given.

The only reason I can think of why CP hasn't sold those track is to get around any problems on the Toronto North Sub and making money off GO.

Dan would be the best one to answer the question.

The Galt subdivision/Milton line from the USRC limits(which start at Strachan) to West Toronto(mile 1.45 to mile 4.8) has been owned by GO for over a decade now. It was one of the first segments of mainline track that GO purchased(along with the Uxbridge sub & northern portion of the Newmarket sub) having done so well before Metrolinx's recent aggressive corridor acquisition strategy was implemented.

As referenced directly from a CP timetable, per note 11.8;

An aerial overview where the GO ownership starts(end of the highlighted area on westward curve);

http://www.gotransit.com/gts/en/docs/finalEPR/Report-Stage_1_Archeological_Assessment.pdf

Further research reveals that the line was originally leased by GO in 1998.
Excerpt from http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/1998/agendas/council/cc/cc981125/ud13rpt/cl002.htm;

Exhibit 1 shows the four rail lines within the City identified for abandonment or transfer in CN's and CP's three-year plans. GO Transit has concluded an agreement with CP for the long-term (99-year) lease of the Galt line and the CP Havelock line has been transferred to an internal shortline rail operator. The remaining two lines, CN Newmarket and CPBelleville-Don Branch, continue to be listed in the railway companies three-year plans but have not been advertised for sale in a public notice. Based on discussions with railway industry representatives there appears to be a consensus that there is surplus freight rail capacity in Central and Eastern Canada (east of Manitoba) and that additional lines will be identified for discontinuance or transfer.

I'm fairly certain(although I can't confirm that for sure) that GO would have subsequently retained outright ownership of that section. It's a only a little over 3 miles long a is lightly used by CP to access industries in the portlands, though I haven't seen any "road switchers" go down there in quite a while. Though fundamentally I suppose there's little difference, even if GO only leases the line they wouldn't have to pay the wheelage fee which would be quite high with expanded service(though it may be quite a while before you folks on the Milton line see that) as opposed to the yearly costs of a set lease negotiated way back in 98. Also the only line identified for abandonment previously that doesn't belong to GO on that list is the Havelock sub to Peterborough.

GO built the second and higher speed south track curve at West Toronto(50mph vs 30mph for the north track) at West Toronto;
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2104.shtml
Note; the north track is erroneously noted as being 30kph on that link. All CP timetables I have state it as being 30mph and speeds on all rail lines in Canada are referenced in mph)

And as always current track ownerships can be referenced on my page here;
https://www.flickr.com/photos/69004511@N03/15273271179/in/photostream/lightbox/

 

[vegeta_skyline]

As far as I know, none of the tracks are permanently assigned to one brand of train or the other and the whole thing will function as a single integrated corridor. In order to keep traffic flow optimal and reduce crossover movements, though, they'll presumably dispatch trains along a routine pattern. Left will presumably be mostly Milton GO, right will be Kitchener GO, VIA and UP.

The two left most tracks(West side) will be exclusively Milton as its an entirely separate subdivsion - the Galt sub. It veers off westerly at West Toronto and there will be no platforms at Bloor station for either track.

Nice Pic!

Is that dial set up for speed control? It kinda looks like the ones on the SRT

It's the same speedometer as the ones currently used on GO's MP40 locomotives;
https://www.flickr.com/photos/69004511@N03/6535487239/in/photostream/lightbox/

 

[nfitz]

Not according to GO or Metrolinx. They have said that "up to" 10 more trips per day (workdays only) will commence...so 5 more return trips. Times/schedule of those trips TBD as is the start date of this slightly increased schedule (although knowledgable posters here have indicated that it will not be until September).

Has Metrolinx said this recently though? Yes, they said that a while ago, before all the outrage about the UPX pricing started.

Since then, it's been a more vague "our schedules have not been finalized" type comments.

Still, 5 additional return trips, added to the 3 return trips that they were previously running before construction started leads to 8 non-peak return trips a day. If they run every 90 minutes, you could easily see something like:

from Bramalea
9:40 (existing service)
11:10
12:40
14:10
15:40
17:10
18:40
20:10
21:40

from Union
6:30
8:00
9:30
11:00
12:30
14:00
15:30 (existing service)
....
18:50 (existing service)
20:20
21:50

That's essentially all-day 5-day service, without doing more than they've already promised. Though quite frankly, given the changing message, I wouldn't be surprised if we see better than that.

 

[TOareaFan]

Has Metrolinx said this recently though? Yes, they said that a while ago, before all the outrage about the UPX pricing started.

Since then, it's been a more vague "our schedules have not been finalized" type comments.

Not sure they have made any public pronouncements in that time but my semi regular inquiries are still met with the same replies.

Still, 5 additional return trips, added to the 3 return trips that they were previously running before construction started leads to 8 non-peak return trips a day. If they run every 90 minutes, you could easily see something like:

from Bramalea
9:40 (existing service)
11:10
12:40
14:10
15:40
17:10
18:40
20:10
21:40

from Union
6:30
8:00
9:30
11:00
12:30
14:00
15:30 (existing service)
....
18:50 (existing service)
20:20
21:50

That's essentially all-day 5-day service, without doing more than they've already promised. Though quite frankly, given the changing message, I wouldn't be surprised if we see better than that.

The 10 new trips thing was a subtraction from the service in place at the time they said there would be "up to 29" total trips since there are already 15 trips that means a max of 14 new ones....your proposed schedule includes 16 new trips....so two of them would have to be cut. (I think the discrepancy comes from some service additions since the start of the project - like the new 5pm eastbound trip) with no change in the "up to 29" total trip figure.

EDIT: aside from an overcount of 2....i would hope you would also agree that your schedule needs to include a train between the 17:45 EB and 18:50 EB out of union ....so you really have to cut 3 of your other trips.

That said, while you can (as you point out) stretch out 14 or 16 additional trips over a day and cover a lot of the day.....it is interesting that the major critique of the old hourly off peak service on Lakeshore was that service was not frequent enough for people to adandon their cars and commit to the train...that half hourly was needed.....yet this schedule you propose (which is clearly better than current) is supposed to be useful enough to appeal to people?

Also, even your very gallant attempt to stretch those trips out over the day would not give someone going to a Leaf/Raptor/Jays game or conert at Skydome/ACC that there would be a train ride home unless they are willing to leave early.

Try as we may....adding 14 (or even 16) trips to the current level of service does not a reliable (or effective) AD2W service make!

SECOND EDIT: Hopefully, though, it is not just a case of taking the 14 new trips and adding them to the existing schedule and hopefully there is some thought to the whole schedule (which is likely anyways if Mt. Pleasant becomes the begining/end of most/all of the service.).

 

[nfitz]

The 10 new trips thing was a subtraction from the service in place at the time they said there would be "up to 29" total trips since there are already 15 trips that means a max of 14 new ones....your proposed schedule includes 16 new trips....so two of them would have to be cut. (I think the discrepancy comes from some service additions since the start of the project - like the new 5pm eastbound trip) with no change in the "up to 29" total trip figure.

Ah, yes. They did add some services. So that could cut in - I assumed the 5 new round-trips would be off-peak in addition the 3 old round trips.

EDIT: aside from an overcount of 2....i would hope you would also agree that your schedule needs to include a train between the 17:45 EB and 18:50 EB out of union ....so you really have to cut 3 of your other trips.[/quote]How crowded in the 18:50 currently? Though perhaps you just move it, and the others, up 30 minutes.

Still, we're in fantasy land here ... perhaps you just do it with 2-hour spacings instead of 90-minute spacings. My point is that even with what's been promised, we can get something close to 2-way all day.

yet this schedule you propose (which is clearly better than current) is supposed to be useful enough to appeal to people?

The old 1-hour service on Lakeshore was well used. Service hasn't doubled by going every 30 minutes. It's certainly gone up significantly, but it hasn't doubled.

Also, even your very gallant attempt to stretch those trips out over the day would not give someone going to a Leaf/Raptor/Jays game or conert at Skydome/ACC that there would be a train ride home unless they are willing to leave early.

If it were up to me, I'd be doing a minimum of 1-hour off-peak service from 6 AM to 1 AM; 7 days a week (though perhaps not 6 AM on a Saturday or Sunday!).

 

[TOareaFan]

The old 1-hour service on Lakeshore was well used. Service hasn't doubled by going every 30 minutes. It's certainly gone up significantly, but it hasn't doubled.

I believe when they launched the 30 minute service the average off peak train was carrying around 250 passengers (too lazy to go back for the actual number) the last pronouncement (after about a year) was that off peak usage has increased by 50%....so yes, I agree the doubling of service had not yet produced an equal amount of increased ridership.

Lakeshore off peak, as we have discussed before, also gets a boost from people who would be better served by service on other lines but on weekends and for events drive or bus down to the Lakeshore line.

If it were up to me, I'd be doing a minimum of 1-hour off-peak service from 6 AM to 1 AM; 7 days a week (though perhaps not 6 AM on a Saturday or Sunday!).

That is exactly what I would do.

 

[nfitz]

Lakeshore off peak, as we have discussed before, also gets a boost from people who would be better served by service on other lines but on weekends and for events drive or bus down to the Lakeshore line.

Ah, that's an interesting thought. I must have missed it before. Yes, it surely does! Lakeshore West at least picking up Milton and Kitchener line passengers. I'm not sure it applies as much for Lakeshore East, given there's no other lines east of Kennedy in Toronto - there's certainly nothing else in Durham Region.

It would be interesting to see the ratio of peak vs non-peak riders for Lakeshore East vs Lakeshore West.

 

[TOareaFan]

Ah, that's an interesting thought. I must have missed it before. Yes, it surely does! Lakeshore West at least picking up Milton and Kitchener line passengers. I'm not sure it applies as much for Lakeshore East, given there's no other lines east of Kennedy in Toronto - there's certainly nothing else in Durham Region.

It would be interesting to see the ratio of peak vs non-peak riders for Lakeshore East vs Lakeshore West.

For TFC's first 7 years we drove to every match....every passing game it got harder and harder to get away from the stadium and the gap between the end of the match to walking into our house was increasing rapidly.

At the start of this season we decided to try out driving to Long Branch and taking the train in. Really does not save us much time going to the match but coming home we save about 1/2 hour. I thought you were involved in that earlier convo (apparantly not) but as I look the cars in the parking lot at Long Branch I see a lot of them bought at dealerships that would indicate they are from areas served by the Milton line and, to a slightly lesser extent, the GT/KW line.

EDIT: I should say that I do not think it is strictly an off-peak phenomenon....we have people here at the office who live closer to the Milton line than LSW but drive every day to their nearest LSW station for the added flexibility/freedom that gives them for their return home trips.

.....also used to happen within Brampton when the then 6:45 pm (now 6:50) EB train used to end at Bramalea......I knew several folks that would drive to Bramalea in the morning (even though they lived closer to Brampton stn) because missing the 5:45 would otherwise condemn them to that awful train to bus combo that took a horribly long time.....the point is, people will drive a bit further for flexibility.

 

[cbrown2009]

I've been begging for a schedule like the one proposed above for years! The only thing is that I would take the 6:30 trip from Union & make it a 23:00 or thereabouts for post events sporting & concerts etc.

That being said, on a serious note: Is 29 total daily trips a hard cap for service improvements? Could ML not up that to say 32 or 35 if they see the need? It is possible that their projections are too low. I attended Nuit Blanche last weekend and Union was a zoo at 1:30. They had 4 packed buses make the all stops to Georgetown between 1:30 & 2 am and still turned a large crowd of people away to wait for the 2:30 train. I know special event and all that but to me it's an indication that there is a lot of demand out here. They should also be instituting weekend trains, even if only a few trips.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Nuit Blanche is a very large exception to the rule of late night service, the subway was over capacity at 3am on that night. Don't count it as normal.

 

[TOareaFan]

Nuit Blanche is a very large exception to the rule of late night service, the subway was over capacity at 3am on that night. Don't count it as normal.

Agree...but as someone who attends a lot of Leafs/Raptors games and goes to about 5 or 6 concerts a year at the ACC .....there are lots of events that pack the buses on the KW line (likely all the bus lines but I don't get on them) and often buses leave packed leaving people on the platform (GO does a good job of bringing in extras where they can but sometimes people do wait for the next scheduled bus).