Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[cbrown2009]

Yes I understand that. But the point I was trying to make is that Go underestimated the numbers they thought they would see that night because a second train, or a first one, depending on your point of view, at about 1:30am would have been more than sufficient to the task. It could mean if their estimates were low then they might be low for other areas & times too. It's just speculation on my part... Now that the Leafs & Raptors are back, I also expect to see a lot of extra buses used on game nights going home

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes I understand that. But the point I was trying to make is that Go underestimated the numbers they thought they would see that night because a second train, or a first one, depending on your point of view, at about 1:30am would have been more than sufficient to the task. It could mean if their estimates were low then they might be low for other areas & times too. It's just speculation on my part...

I think it is far more simple than that. GO put on 1 special train home (as they did on the other lines) and if you are going to run 1 train for an all night festival you put it on as late as possible....they, basically, relied on their normal bus service to get the early leavers home and the 1 train was to catch the rest.

I agree with your basic premise that a late train would get people home from events......but I think using NB as the support for it is off point...it really is a special thing.

 

[Platform 27]

I've been begging for a schedule like the one proposed above for years! The only thing is that I would take the 6:30 trip from Union & make it a 23:00 or thereabouts for post events sporting & concerts etc.

That being said, on a serious note: Is 29 total daily trips a hard cap for service improvements? Could ML not up that to say 32 or 35 if they see the need? It is possible that their projections are too low. I attended Nuit Blanche last weekend and Union was a zoo at 1:30. They had 4 packed buses make the all stops to Georgetown between 1:30 & 2 am and still turned a large crowd of people away to wait for the 2:30 train. I know special event and all that but to me it's an indication that there is a lot of demand out here. They should also be instituting weekend trains, even if only a few trips.

I think everyone's putting way, way too much stock in those estimated train counts that first appeared 4 years ago.

We've heard from enough folks who are in the know on this stuff it ought to be physically possible to run more than 10 additional trains on the tracks they'll have once the current round of construction is complete. That "10 more trains" figure they threw out 4 years ago therefore didn't come from any kind of hard infrastructure cap, and I think it was lowballed in the expectation that they'd start at a certain size in 2015 and grow from there. Better to underpromise and overdeliver than the opposite.

Correct me if I'm missing something, but once the track capacity is there the limitation on GO introducing off-peak service is not the number of locomotives and coaches, it's availability of crews and operating budget. Recall that the actual physical infrastructure for 30 minute GO service on Lakeshore was there for about two years before they pulled the trigger and launched. And even still, while most of the new service launched at once, it took something like six months to fill in all the hourly gaps, and there's still the odd time where it's longer than 30 minutes on the schedule.

As vegeta's shared over the years, the total available crew pool is always a moving target based on the number of new trainees moving through the program and the number of staff jumping ship from Bombardier. Bombardier presumably can't tell GO today with 100% certainty precisely how many crews they will have on hand in September 2015, but it's now probably close enough time-wise that they can make an educated guess and work from there. They certainly couldn't when the "10 more trains" number first appeared.

 

[Platform 27]

Oh, and to post what I actually meant to share when I opened this thread, I saw today that Strachan has now been fully opened with turning lanes, bike lanes and sidewalks on both sides.

 

[bielawski]

I think everyone's putting way, way too much stock in those estimated train counts that first appeared 4 years ago.

We've heard from enough folks who are in the know on this stuff it ought to be physically possible to run more than 10 additional trains on the tracks they'll have once the current round of construction is complete. That "10 more trains" figure they threw out 4 years ago therefore didn't come from any kind of hard infrastructure cap, and I think it was lowballed in the expectation that they'd start at a certain size in 2015 and grow from there. Better to underpromise and overdeliver than the opposite.

Until a few weeks ago the rumours here (too lazy to find a source) were that they were building only three tracks and setting two of them aside for UPX. With only one track for GO without passing tracks, a 1.5 hour frequency is the most you could do, which as nfitz shows comes out to around 10 new round trips.

 

[ehlow]

Until a few weeks ago the rumours here (too lazy to find a source) were that they were building only three tracks and setting two of them aside for UPX. With only one track for GO without passing tracks, a 1.5 hour frequency is the most you could do, which as nfitz shows comes out to around 10 new round trips.

From the photos it looked like there were plenty of room for 2 GO tracks beside the 2 UPX tracks.. can anyone clarify?

 

[drum118]

From the photos it looked like there were plenty of room for 2 GO tracks beside the 2 UPX tracks.. can anyone clarify?

Not sure where you are referring to, but the whole corridor up to hwy 427 is a 4 track corridor come 2015. This will allow 2 tracks for UPX and 2 for Go and the viability to use any of the 4 tracks south until it becomes 6 & 8 tracks south of Bloor St.

The corridor can be expanded to 4 tracks up to Bramalea and then up to Main St in Brampton. It can be 4 tracks west of the Orangeville line and only 3 at the Brampton station.

The original plan was to see only 3 tracks in 2015 with the 4th being added later as needed, but Wynn plan change it to 4 tracks now. I have already noted this in the last few months and a week ago. Until the New Weston Station is built, only 3 track can be in place by December with the 4th in 2015 after the 3rd platform is built. That 3rd platform will have the provision of adding a 5th track for the Bolton line when it every get built. The 3rd platform will be built in 2015/16 now. The new tunnel will be 4 tracks.

September 20 photos
Jane St

Roger Rd/Black Creek

Dennison Rd Grade Separation

 

[reaperexpress]

Until a few weeks ago the rumours here (too lazy to find a source) were that they were building only three tracks and setting two of them aside for UPX. With only one track for GO without passing tracks, a 1.5 hour frequency is the most you could do, which as nfitz shows comes out to around 10 new round trips.

Based on the fact that we're getting more tracks than had been assumed when we got that "5 new round trip" estimate, I think it's fair to guess that we'd get more than that number, potentially ramping up to hourly service within a couple years. However, given what we heard recently about CN not being supportive, it would also be fair to guess that the bulk of service would terminate at Bramalea.

But I would still be pretty happy with all-day service to Bramalea, since that's the transfer location to buses to Kitchener and Guelph. Because these 30 Kitchener uses the 407 and operates non-stop, it's actually faster than the direct Kitchener trains despite the 10-minute transfer at Bramalea. I think hourly bus-to-train service from Guelph and Kitchener would be quite popular. Although it would probably be scheduled to take longer than Greyhound, it would be more reliable because it uses the 407 and GO Trains through the GTA.

 

[cbrown2009]

Not sure where you are referring to, but the whole corridor up to hwy 427 is a 4 track corridor come 2015.

I believe the section of corridor west of the Humber Bridge through Islington & the 401 tunnel aren't going to be ready for 4 tracks next year. The south section of the Islington underpass needs to be dug out & the 401 tunnel needs to be expanded. As of last Thursday they were putting finishing touches like the mesh stone walls in as is. I don't see more than 3 tracks through that area by next year. For a skeleton of all day (90 minute) service it should be ok but RER would require that work be done

 

[drum118]

I believe the section of corridor west of the Humber Bridge through Islington & the 401 tunnel aren't going to be ready for 4 tracks next year. The south section of the Islington underpass needs to be dug out & the 401 tunnel needs to be expanded. As of last Thursday they were putting finishing touches like the mesh stone walls in as is. I don't see more than 3 tracks through that area by next year. For a skeleton of all day (90 minute) service it should be ok but RER would require that work be done

Under the 401 will be the only place 3 tracks will be in service until the 4th track tunnel is built. There will be block signals and crossover on both sides of the 401 that will only have a small operation issue until the 4th (#1) track is on place. UPX will be using track 3 & 4 to the point it can get away using track 4 only in 2015.

People are getting hung up on X trains being added to the line because there is more tracks in 2015, when we know that until GO has the crews to put another train or 2 on the line, GO not going to commit that there will be X trains on the line by X day. What They may want as well the public, crews will be the road block.

The earliest the 4th track is added to the Bramalea-Georgetown section is about 2018, but more like 2020. I saw a schedule for it, but can't find it at this time nor have the time to look for it.

Until Transport Canada changes the current policy for crew training or GO pickup train crews, X trains will only happen after they get their 2 years training and enough of them for all the service hours. Both the province and Metrolinx needs to be talking to Ottawa now to get various policies changes that has an impact on putting crews and equipment on the line faster and cheaper.

 

[agoraflaneur]

Dundas West + Bloor UPX Station Oct. 11:

 

[vegeta_skyline]

^^^ The two lightboxes being different widths looks awkward. Though I understand the practical reason for it, the western platform is wider at least at that point and they wanted to use the maximum space available.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

As vegeta's shared over the years, the total available crew pool is always a moving target based on the number of new trainees moving through the program and the number of staff jumping ship from Bombardier. Bombardier presumably can't tell GO today with 100% certainty precisely how many crews they will have on hand in September 2015, but it's now probably close enough time-wise that they can make an educated guess and work from there. They certainly couldn't when the "10 more trains" number first appeared.

People are getting hung up on X trains being added to the line because there is more tracks in 2015, when we know that until GO has the crews to put another train or 2 on the line, GO not going to commit that there will be X trains on the line by X day. What They may want as well the public, crews will be the road block.

Until Transport Canada changes the current policy for crew training or GO pickup train crews, X trains will only happen after they get their 2 years training and enough of them for all the service hours. Both the province and Metrolinx needs to be talking to Ottawa now to get various policies changes that has an impact on putting crews and equipment on the line faster and cheaper.

I've come to believe that's not even the problem, at least not anymore, it's just the excuse now.

It's one thing when your starting up an operation and for the first few 3-4 years there after. With the two year requirement, plus additional training periods, yup that can definitely hamper things. But they've had over 6 years to get enough personal now. The problem is either poor planning, or they're just being stingy(talking about GO/the province here for they're the ones that control the purse strings). It's shouldn't be all that hard to hire a suffice number of personal well in advance of future service increases. Personal leaving does complicate things but that's why you have to go over and above your anticipated requirements. But more likely they're just using a lack of crews as an excuse to delay future service increases for budgetary reasons. It's coming right down to the wire for a sufficient number of crews just for the Milton & UPX service nevermind anything after that, least not right away. Too early to tell at this point how many they'll be able to train for service increases thereafter.

 

[ehlow]

drum118, thanks for the explanation.

agoraflaneur, thanks for the photos! Bloor station looks pretty cool. Should be an interesting experience walking under the rail bridges to get to the UPX station.

 

[vz64]

It beats me why would they still use wood ties... for brand new tracks! It looks (to me) as things from the past. I understand that historically they were primary material used in railroad construction, but isn't it time to make a change to concrete? It does not make any sense--economical, environmental or aesthetic.... I found an article on how US is on its way to switching to pre-cast