Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[Platform 27]

^My armchair hunch is yes, because getting Mill down below track level also likely requires lowering Railroad Street. That in turn potentially leads to not-insubstantial list of properties that will have their entrances severed.

 

[TOareaFan]

^My armchair hunch is yes, because getting Mill down below track level also likely requires lowering Railroad Street.

only if it is a requirement that Mill and Railroad provide access to each other. Mill could just go below Railroad and eliminate turns between the two (as it is this is a fairly awkward turn now because of blind(ish) turns and dealing with the tracks as part of the turn)

That in turn potentially leads to not-insubstantial list of properties that will have their entrances severed.

All those properties fronting on Railroad between Mill and George should be looked at as temporary in nature as it is. At various times during the past 10 - 15 years they have been bought and accumulated by various people banking on the big downtown Brampton condo boom......I think the last thing I saw was that the city is encouraging (via DC and tax incentives) about 1.6 million s.f. of development on them....so the 7 or 8 houses that currently have their driveways on that stretch of Railroad are probably not that big of a concern. (Editorial note: we have been talking a lot lately around our office about how foolish people might be in investing in/banking on that big downtown Brampton condo boom....but, nonetheless, that seems to be what the City and the landowners have in mind).

 

[Vaucluse]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance here but my experience riding the rails is mostly French-Austrian-Italian and Czech. When you say HSR do you mean a TGV 300km/h train or just a standard 150km/h intercity train. A TGV type train uses it's own tracks and stations and only use "regular" track at the termini stations or when going through large cities. If TGV then the corridor through brampton doesn't need to be more than three tracks, for example the mainline route through the Rhone valley from Lyon to Marseille is mostly two tracks. The separate TGV tracks add four tracks but the two routes are separated by kilometers in some areas and rarely are beside each other.
Maybe a whole new corridor north of the GTA is needed, one that would allow for cargo transport to bypass the urban routes.

 

[mdrejhon]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance here but my experience riding the rails is mostly French-Austrian-Italian and Czech.

TGV.

You must be new to Toronto rails. Welcome to the stone age.

Ontario is starting an environment assessment on true high speed trains that will likely have to go express through this very exact location. It's already straight-arrow track, so convenient for HSR to accelerate towards Kitchener. So, ideally, we want to keep it straight as arrow like it already is through Brampton. The skeptic in me don't see it happening till the 2030s, but we confidently are seriously going to finally electricify our rail network because we voted for SmartTrack, GO RER, and HSR initiatives, putting seriously rail-happy goverments in power at both the municipal and provincial levels. We may also be ending up for a rail-happy federal government in 2015. For the first time, finally we can get REAL European style rail initiatives started here in Toronto, and literally triple/quadruple the size of our transit map of subway-style dedicated right-of-way frequent (15min or better) train service. Our now-better-funded provincial agency, Metrolinx is doing the RER initiative and even stole the acronym of Paris RER system of inspiration -- turning Toronto GOtrains into a true European style high-frequency subway-style electricified commuter train system on all 7 gotrain lines. All level crossings eliminated & something like 400km of electric catenary in just ten years! Confidence of some electricification occuring by 10 years: HIGH. Confidence of 250kph+ high speed rail in 20 years: MEDIUM (miraculous, really)

So it behooves us to make sure that Georgetown South corridor and beyond (Brampton) is HSR compatible. Two middle express/bypass HSR tracks and two outer GO RER tracks (Station platforms), would require the freight mainline to bypass brampton. No HSR corridor relocations are feasibly going to occur, unless we choose the lakeshore corridor (which is much slower to Kitchener). High speed trains are going to go whoosh in central passing tracks, between the outer platform tracks. This is Ontario's key passenger train corridor west of Union.

This is why I see 4 tracks happening when the overpasses gets widened -- not 3. Brampton's getting a 4 track corridor, if GO RER is going through here and if we're also protecting for HSR. GO RER 15-minute European-style service with express/allstop will need 2 dedicated platform tracks plus a dedicated passing track (Which, in theory, could support higher speed trains (express trains shared with slightly slowed-down HSR). HSR can get dedicated 300kph+ track when going out to the farmlands, but this isn't going to be possible to give HSR dedicated track Brampton, but we can at least make some tracks express-only tracks and have HSR share central platformless passing tracks with the nonstop express trains. With proper headway and scheduling, 200kph HSR can share the same station passing track with 150kph nonstop express trains, if there are separate track for separate direction. All depends on how fast the express trainsets Metrolinx chooses, the quality of the signalling, it should be easy to go 200-250kph+ on the straightline arrow going through Brampton if scheduling and track capacity allows.

If we can't build a freight bypass, a compromise occurs somewhere, such as one central HSR track and more infrequent or unidirectional HSR scheduling, severely slowing down HSR, or choosing a 5-track corridor (that becomes much more problematic than 4 tracks which theoretically doesn't require much expropriation with some creativity). But 3-track corridor is DOA for Brampton. If we expand, then expand it with provisions for 4.

Interesting, EA's for high speed rail and EA's for GO RER Kitchener (beyond UPX line) appears to be about to run concurrently, so it will be important that these EA's co-operate to an extent.

 

[drum118]

Sound Wall Going Up By Dupont.

Clear Plastic 1 inch thick.

Rest of the Railpath post are in for the non sound barrier wall.

The folks at Wallace Ave Townhouses under construction must pay for a wall on their property if they want one.
[video=youtube_share;mUDmhqIHwU8]http://youtu.be/mUDmhqIHwU8[/video]

 

[ssiguy2]

GO will never be like a Paris RER or any S-Bahn system unless it brings in complete fare equivalency.

They could run every run every 20 seconds but that in no way would make it close to a RER/S-Bahn system. The thing that makes those system so great and result in such high ridership is that the lines are distance based but they don't care how you get from A to B........bus, tram, RER, Metro, they don't tell you how to ride their only concern is getting you there. Toronto on the other hand seems determined to add much higher fares for the same distance for the sole reason that they use a different form of track.

Until GO is the same fare as any of the other transit system in the GTHA and one's fare is based on distance and not technology, GO will just be a better Commuter Rail system but never anything more than Commuter Rail and all the anacronisms in the world won't change that.

 

[mdrejhon]

GO will never be like a Paris RER or any S-Bahn system unless it brings in complete fare equivalency.

Far more fare equivalency will definitely be happening within 10-20 years at least for the 416 zone.
- SmartTrack is a GO RER with fare equivalency
- Presto Card deployment
- Metrolinx already said GO RER trains will be cheaper operating expense after the capital
- TTC fares have been going up, too. RER fares may drop for the 416 sections thanks to increased capacity and lower operating cost. By 2020, it converges: Presto full rollout, TTC rise, RER local section drop, kaboom, unification.
- 416 infill stations, enough ideas to double the number and be useful rapid transit supplement
- Better interchange stations, like Eglington new interchange (SmartTrack+UPX+Crosstown)
- Paris RER also has zones too, but equalized with the metro.

So wait and see.

It will be even better if they find a way to activate the midtown line. That will add a much needed cross gridding to GO RER. There is ROW for four tracks (after a few challenges at overpasses), so CP can coexist with a GO RER midtown as another crosstown line between Eglinton and Bloor. No plans for that line, but lots could happen in the next decade. And listen to creative ideas such as a gondola between TTC Castlefrank and a new Don Valley GO RER station (cheap DRL mini). Some cities have added gondolas to their public transit! And other common-sense ways to improve interchange.

That said, the existing initiatives already foreshadows near-definite faresystem unification.

 

[EnviroTO]

GO will never be like a Paris RER or any S-Bahn system unless it brings in complete fare equivalency.

Paris doesn't have fare equivalency for the metro and RER. The metro is a single fare, and the RER is a zone fare. You pay about a dollar more or about 25% more to take the RER from Gare de Lyon than you do on the metro. Kennedy station is further from Toronto Union than La Defense is from Gare de Lyon. Toronto is very spread out when compared to European cities. Other than Union, Exhibition, Bloor, Danforth, and maybe Mimico stations, other stations would be in another fare zone.

 

[nfitz]

Paris doesn't have fare equivalency for the metro and RER. The metro is a single fare, and the RER is a zone fare. You pay about a dollar more or about 25% more to take the RER from Gare de Lyon than you do on the metro. Kennedy station is further from Toronto Union than La Defense is from Gare de Lyon

Do you? I simply flashed the same 3-day pass (that I bought at Waterloo station) for both. Though I didn't even travel as far as La Defense.

Mind you, I did the same in Montreal when I used to live there in the 1980s for the 2 AMT lines and the STM Metro. The line to cover most of the AMT stations on the Island was only a bit more than a regular Metro pass (though back then 2 AMT lines were run by STM, making fare integration politically easy). Hmm, looking now, the STM monthly pass for the entire island is $79.50 and fare to include the AMT zone 1 stations is only $89.50 (it's $76 for just AMT). Hmm, though looking at the fare zones, there are more than there used to be, so what I'd have had would have been a Zone 2 pass, for $105 ($89.50 for just train).

So do we really need complete fare equivalency? Or just a cost for GO that's marginally more than just TTC? The current TTC pass is $133.75. What about if you could add all GO services within Toronto for a total of $150?

Much of a problem is the high cost of GO for distances within Toronto. Union to Exhibition is the same GO fare zone, and a monthly "pass" is $167. Rouge Hill to Union is $201. And Rouge Hill to Long Branch is $260. Compare to Montreal, where the equivalent of Rouge Hill to Long Branch (St-Anne-de-Bellevue to Point-Aux-Trembles - Zone 3) is just $106 ($125 if you include all Montreal metro, buses, Laval metro and buses, and most of the south shore metro and buses). Toss in the $133.75 TTC cost the the $260 GO cost, and using both GO and TTC within Toronto costs $393.75 a month compared to $125 for the same deal in Montreal.

Is it really fare equivalency we want? Or just fare integration. Montreal has fare integration, but not fare equivalency, but I'd take their fare structure over ours any day!

 

[BurlOak]

Going the 6km from Oakville GO to Bronte GO costs $5.20. Go just isn't meant for short distance travel.

 

[nfitz]

Going the 6km from Oakville GO to Bronte GO costs $5.20. Go just isn't meant for short distance travel.

6 km is short distance travel? Short distance is when I take the streetcar down the road 4 stops to a restaurant with the family.

 

[LNahid2000]

6 km is short distance travel? Short distance is when I take the streetcar down the road 4 stops to a restaurant with the family.

I'd consider it short distance when you can travel the 50km across the city of Toronto for $2.70.

 

[TOareaFan]

Going the 6km from Oakville GO to Bronte GO costs $5.20. Go just isn't meant for short distance travel.

$4.68 with a Presto Card.....not sure why people keep posting the non Presto fares when having these discussions....as if people making that trip would volunteer to pay more by avoiding getting a Presto Card.

 

[mdrejhon]

Paris doesn't have fare equivalency for the metro and RER. The metro is a single fare, and the RER is a zone fare. You pay about a dollar more or about 25% more to take the RER from Gare de Lyon than you do on the metro.

It's my understanding there's fare equivalency within the walls. As long as that happens with a future GO RER+TTC faresystem unification within 416 (just like Paris RER+metro within the old walls of Paris), there can still be zone fares for longer trips going from 416 outwards to 905.

Some more info about the Paris RER fare system -- http://www.parisnet.com/metro.html. You DO sometimes have to pay an increment... It depends. But there's easy transfer between RER and Metro. That's what GO needs over time.

This may mean we'll eventually get a tapout system on TTC (Not Vancouver's flaky system which uses server communications at tapout, but same performance as the quick tapout system they use at London Underground) as part of faresystem unification eventually.

I got tweet replies from TTC/Metrolinx that strongly suggested new Presto turnstile design is going to be using Presto at the top, rather than the front -- similar to London's system. In theory, this allows TTC to easily enable a tapout system eventually. After all, the chip used in London Octopus cards and Ontario Presto cards, is identical, so it's technologically implementable. Once that's done, we may tap-in on a TTC, then tap-out on GO RER. And tap-in on GO RER and tap-out on TTC. The new SmartTrack-Crosstown interchange station at Eglingon, would have no faregates in between. Likewise, there will probably be no faregates when you transfer from SmartTrack and a Kitchener GOTrain, because they're forced to recycle the same GO platforms on the same GO routes.

The writing is so obvious on the wall that THERE WILL BE FARESYSTEM UNIFICATION, FULL STOP
*** Gateless interchange stations between GO and TTC is actually happening at Eglington
*** Share some of the same GO platform between SmartTrack and GOTrains. You'll be standing on GOTrain platforms when you step off SmartTrack at some platforms.
*** Metrolinx said SmartTrack is a GO RER with an Eglington spur
*** TTC accelerating full Presto deploy to 2016. This makes it possible to say goodbye to Metropasses/tokens by SmartTrack complete.
*** Suggestive information we'll get a similar style of tap turnstile as London Underground, which uses high-efficiency high-speed tapin/tapout (presto reader on top of turnstile: You can literally run while tapping!). This enables TTC to decide to use tapout in future.

Catch any SmartTrack train. Get off at any platform. Due to GO platform reuse, guess what -- nothing stops you from hopping into a GOTrain that passes after the SmartTrack train! There's no way to faregate the GO platforms if you're already standing at the same platforms. You're not going to be able to install extra platforms at all the GOTrain stations. And we aren't going to use short UPX-style platforms (SmartTrack trains will be longer than those). Politically & economically, the pressure is towards fare unification if you go between only 2 or 3 GOTrain stations within 416, and only get charged increment when you go longer distances on the GO system. Electric GO RER lower costs, Metrolinx said the operating model of SmartTrack looked good even at TTC fare, and GO RER adds enough capacity to pay more operating costs at lower fares.

It's happening, whether you like it or not. We might have gradualness (as GO RER slowly comes online) and a complex hybrid (but no more hybrid than Paris RER) but the day is coming where there's no more faregates GO and TTC (beginning with the SmartTrack-TTC interchange). Want to bet your mortgage?

TL;DR: John Tory already de-facto promised you'll be able to tap-in at GO RER/SmartTrack Gerrard Square and tap-out at Wellesley TTC -- and pay only the same TTC fare you'd normally pay to go from Union TTC to Eglinton TTC. No faregates between GO and TTC at the Crosstown endpoints. Also, you are already standing on some GO platforms when you get off a SmartTrack train - how will you resolve that ambiguity. There you go. That's the start of faresystem unification.

 

[EnviroTO]

Do you? I simply flashed the same 3-day pass (that I bought at Waterloo station) for both. Though I didn't even travel as far as La Defense.

If you travel within a zone then the fare is the same. Basically the Paris metro is a one zone fare even when it crosses zones, whereas RER has the same fare for a single zone but crossing zones increases the fare. However, a single fare zone is not the size of Toronto. I think for distances of less than about 10-12km it would be the same fare in Paris.