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[mpd618]

"And GO Transit can begin preparing to ramp up future service to meet the 15-minute two-way, all-day regional express rail service on the lines it owns over the next 10 years. (bolding is my edit)"

In other words, no commitment for 15-minute 2WAD west of Bramalea. I wonder if people in Guelph or Kitchener appreciate that nuance when they read the promises that are being thrown their way.

Metrolinx now owns the tracks from Georgetown to Kitchener, though.

Promises about the "Kitchener Line" are nevertheless hella confusing if they are about service that terminates at Mount Pleasant.

 

[TOareaFan]

Metrolinx now owns the tracks from Georgetown to Kitchener, though.

Promises about the "Kitchener Line" are nevertheless hella confusing if they are about service that terminates at Mount Pleasant.

it is the part from Bramalea to Georgetown that they don't own now.......which is strange since when they talk about RER, and the mix of express and local service, Mt Pleasant seems to be the key point.

 

[robmausser]

it is the part from Bramalea to Georgetown that they don't own now.......which is strange since when they talk about RER, and the mix of express and local service, Mt Pleasant seems to be the key point.

You can always build track next to the current trackage in the same corridor. Its what GO did for the extension to Oshawa from Pickering in the 80's.

The CN track between Bramalea to Georgetown is CN mainline, not going to be sold, but you simply have to build tracks next to them, its really not that difficult if there is room and CN is willing to give you the land in the corridor.

 

[ShonTron]

And for the most part, there are now three tracks between Bramalea and Mount Pleasant where there used to be two, and two tracks through Downtown Brampton where there used to be one. Brampton and Mount Pleasant both have additional platforms that makes the CN dispatcher's job a lot easier. The widening of the Credit River bridge near Georgetown also makes it easier for more GO trains to co-exist on CN's mainline.

 

[crs1026]

Hourly service to Mount Pleasant is not a significant intrusion on the CN leg of the route. CN would have to tolerate two moves an hour between Peel and Brampton, a very short distance, but would otherwise retain a two-track freight corridor.

Anything beyond hourly service gets dicey. It's 18 minutes each way from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant, and some turnaround time is needed at Mount Pleasant. On a 30 minute headway, GO movements would pass each other somewhere en route. That reduces CN to single track for a longer stretch. Any longer-distance passenger trains - VIA or GO RER - further encroach on that. The longer-distance trains also need to cross over to the north side to exit at Silver. Those moves have to be lined at least five minutes before the GO train reaches the crossover point - otherwise it will be running on restrictive signals approaching the crossover, ie slower. So hourly reverse direction service to Guelph means the entire freight path is blocked 10 minutes of every hour. I don't know what level of impact CN will accept, but they will be looking out for themselves at some point.

Do not underestimate what it will take to add trackage through Central Brampton. There are heritage buildings (including the old station) quite close to the right of way. The embankments are quite challenging to widen. I have seen powerpoints that draw the third track along the north side, which would require demolishing the depot. There will have to be a public debate - look at how firmly Brampton City Council is resisting LRT along Main Street due to impacts on the downtown. And then there will be a lengthy construction period.

This short segment is likely a chokepoint to growth, and it's a long haul to change. More reason for GO to be clear, publicly and on the record, about what the long-lead-time items in their 10-year plan are. Some may take longer.

- Paul

 

[mpd618]

Do not underestimate what it will take to add trackage through Central Brampton. There are heritage buildings (including the old station) quite close to the right of way. The embankments are quite challenging to widen. I have seen powerpoints that draw the third track along the north side, which would require demolishing the depot.

I was under the impression that small buildings can be moved. Surely that's easier than multi-year heritage preservation battles and cheaper than figuring out a different alignment.

 

[mdrejhon]

The province has a little extra power (e.g. expropriation). This will piss off people, but before they have to go that far to pull that card -- a creative package can probably be pulled off.

Offer an attractive compensation package Brampton can't resist, including renovation of heritage buildings, after moving some of them a few feet. Yes, even the train station can be moved -- it's pretty small, and bigger brick buildings have successfully been moved. Heritage buildings are expensive to renovate, so some are probably are inevitably falling apart, and would save Brampton a lot of money if the province offered it as a quid pro quo for freeing up for a third track.

This is also the future HSR corridor, so we may also need to eventually four-track it, might as well begin preparing to move heritage buildings around a little bit. Brampton will be thrown a few bones by becoming an upgraded GO RER station; imagine a surface subway station in Brampton with 15-min all-day 2-way service to Toronto! What Bramptonian creature would turn that down? That's a massive carrot dangling, right there...

The Ontario HSR EA (now proceeding) and the Metrolinx GO RER EAs (starting up rather expeditiously) probably will also possibly offer some very interesting ideas. We may hear some brainstorms sooner than later, because of the challenge of this section of corridor needs to be slammed onto the negotiating table in a rather of a hurry to meet goals.

 

[ShonTron]

The only heritage building(s) that need to be moved are the 1907 GTR station (which I believe is still owned by VIA, but could be mistaken and actually owned by GO now) and the old baggage/express building that served as the GO ticket office in the early years of the Georgetown service.

If the third track is built on the north side of the embankment, there's no other major heritage buildings impacted. A fourth track might impact the old Hewetson Shoes Factory, now a office loft building at 57 Mill St N. (A third track wouldn't; there's space where an old CN/CP connecting track was located. The embankment, if built on the north side, would only require an auto body shop and some encroachment to the Nelson St. E. ROW. I'm sure if this would guarantee half-hourly or better GO service, Brampton wouldn't put up much of a fight. After all, it wouldn't pass in front of Bill Davis and the wealthy old Brampton NIMBY families' houses on Main St South.

 

[mdrejhon]

I see that this streetview is the old Hewetson Shoes Factory.

Houston, we have a problem. That's also a surface crossing with major impact to that building. Even if we only keep it a double track (not even quad track), this is one of the bigger barriers to making Brampton a dedicated ROW. Turning this road into an underpass will be a big headache for this adjacent building. Relocating the stations by a few meters is easy compared to this. Sink the train corridor in a Brampton Trench/Tunnel, perhaps?

Also, this second level crossing in Brampton will be tough to solve. Simpler and cheaper is to just Cul-de-Sac this one (that may actually help the house values, even). There's an nearby road underpass one block away (Queen Street E) so drive inconvenience is minor.

Now what to do with the level crossing at the shoe factory...

 

[muller877]

I see that this streetview is the old Hewetson Shoes Factory.

Houston, we have a problem. That's also a surface crossing with major impact to that building. Even if we only keep it a double track (not even quad track), this is one of the bigger barriers to making Brampton a dedicated ROW. Turning this road into an underpass will be a big headache for this adjacent building. Relocating the stations by a few meters is easy compared to this. Sink the train corridor in a Brampton Trench/Tunnel, perhaps?

Also, this second level crossing in Brampton will be tough to solve. Simpler and cheaper is to just Cul-de-Sac this one (that may actually help the house values, even). There's an nearby road underpass one block away (Queen Street E) so drive inconvenience is minor.

Now what to do with the level crossing at the shoe factory...

Why would the road underpass be a problem for this building? Look at Dupont St just east of Dundas. There is a very similar building built right beside the adjacent underpass

 

[Platform 27]

I see that this streetview is the old Hewetson Shoes Factory.

Houston, we have a problem. That's also a surface crossing with major impact to that building. Even if we only keep it a double track (not even quad track), this is one of the bigger barriers to making Brampton a dedicated ROW. Turning this road into an underpass will be a big headache for this adjacent building. Relocating the stations by a few meters is easy compared to this. Sink the train corridor in a Brampton Trench/Tunnel, perhaps?

Also, this second level crossing in Brampton will be tough to solve. Simpler and cheaper is to just Cul-de-Sac this one (that may actually help the house values, even). There's an nearby road underpass one block away (Queen Street E) so drive inconvenience is minor.

Now what to do with the level crossing at the shoe factory...

Full disclosure, snooty 416er who's just looking at Google Maps and doesn't really have the kind of local knowledge to suggest anything definitive here, but here's my best crack at a solution to Mill:

1) Close the crossing, constructing a pedestrian bridge instead.

2) Create an underpass connection between McMurchy and Pleasantview, about 350 m to the west, which has the following advantages:

• Evens out spacing of vehicle crossings of the corridor between Main and McLaughlin
• Connects two arterials that have longer and more direct routes north and south of the tracks, cleaning up local vehicle circulation (Mill is truncated at Queen and Rosedale and isn't much use for cross-town traffic, while a joined-up McMurchy-Pleasantview would run between Steeles and Vodden, and with a single turn at Vodden runs further north all the way to Mayfield via Royal Orchard/Van Kirk)
• Offers plenty of room for the road to ramp down and up without major impacts to existing entrances.

 

[Vaucluse]

Why does everyone think that the station or other heritage building have to be removed? When I look at the area (google aerial map) I see just west of the downtown area that the third track is south of the other two. To me I should think that railroad street and the properties that face onto it could be expropriated and the expropriation continued east until the the third track east of dt Brampton (again south of the other two). Technically this would be the easier and faster route to corridor expansion, unless I'm really missing something?

 

[TOareaFan]

Why does everyone think that the station or other heritage building have to be removed? When I look at the area (google aerial map) I see just west of the downtown area that the third track is south of the other two. To me I should think that railroad street and the properties that face onto it could be expropriated and the expropriation continued east until the the third track east of dt Brampton (again south of the other two). Technically this would be the easier and faster route to corridor expansion, unless I'm really missing something?

I think a track south of the existing two would have difficulty squeezing by the office building at Main and Nelson which houses the bus terminal that BT and GO use (and is attached to the train station via a tunnel)

 

[mdrejhon]

Full disclosure, snooty 416er who's just looking at Google Maps and doesn't really have the kind of local knowledge to suggest anything definitive here, but here's my best crack at a solution to Mill:

Good idea, maybe they're brainstorming that already. Your idea just armchair-out-planned a rougher-hewn Hamiltonian homeowner (me). I'm a refugee from Toronto with GOTrain commute to a downtown Toronto job.

I think a track south of the existing two would have difficulty squeezing by the office building at Main and Nelson

Looking from ground level streetview, there seems to be space for a south track. It'll be tight due to the stairs, but if they juggle the pedestrian layout around a bit, it should be doable. You can also make the sidewalks wider. Add tasteful non-tacky pretty LED accent lighting, making a 4-track overpass WAY brighter after sunset than this 2-track overpass. They should not slap just any generic overpass here; it's a flagship Brampton welcome entrance! So whatever new 4-track overpass goes here (1 track north, 1 track south) needs to be pretty and fit in, or locals won't buy it. There will be a major loss of the gardens at the left, unless they go for noveau styles like vertical gardens to compensate for the crowding that side of the sidewalk will have. Whether snooty 416ers think this is an ugly or not, it's still a flagship entrance sign to Brampton. If the monostrity "Brampton welcome" overpass doubles in size, you've gotta budget for a non-generic overpass; it must be 'enhanced' enough to feel like an upgrade rather than a downgrade.

Why does everyone think that the station or other heritage building have to be removed?

Moved, not removed. And we need four tracks through here, for unimpeded GO RER plus future HSR, while keeping one track as mainline. Five tracks will be ideal (2 allstop tracks and 2 express/future HSR tracks, plus 1 mainline track) but that just isn't possible without a tunnel or politically problematic expropriation.

Technically this would be the easier and faster route to corridor expansion, unless I'm really missing something?

Could be. But you could avoid most Brampton expropriation of that with one track north, one track south (and moving the railroad station slightly; bigger 100-year-old building have been "moved" than this station). And it'd be a straighter alignment to the tracks beyond that stays level, good for future HSR.

 

[TOareaFan]

Full disclosure, snooty 416er who's just looking at Google Maps and doesn't really have the kind of local knowledge to suggest anything definitive here, but here's my best crack at a solution to Mill:

1) Close the crossing, constructing a pedestrian bridge instead.

2) Create an underpass connection between McMurchy and Pleasantview, about 350 m to the west, which has the following advantages:

• Evens out spacing of vehicle crossings of the corridor between Main and McLaughlin
• Connects two arterials that have longer and more direct routes north and south of the tracks, cleaning up local vehicle circulation (Mill is truncated at Queen and Rosedale and isn't much use for cross-town traffic, while a joined-up McMurchy-Pleasantview would run between Steeles and Vodden, and with a single turn at Vodden runs further north all the way to Mayfield via Royal Orchard/Van Kirk)
• Offers plenty of room for the road to ramp down and up without major impacts to existing entrances.

a 250 m underpass/tunnel under tracks and a school is easier/better than just taking Mill Street below the tracks?