Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

Presumably because the injection comes with strings attached/preconditions.

+1

I like the idea of two super tall towers being built in Toronto but not at the price of a casino. I really believe that all arguments in favour simply paper over the social costs while over-exaggerating the effect of casino jobs and revenue from the casinos. If we could get the towers without the casino it'd be perfect. With the casino I'm borderline at best and, for all intents and purposes, opposed in the long run.
 
Casino

+1

I like the idea of two super tall towers being built in Toronto but not at the price of a casino. I really believe that all arguments in favour simply paper over the social costs while over-exaggerating the effect of casino jobs and revenue from the casinos. If we could get the towers without the casino it'd be perfect. With the casino I'm borderline at best and, for all intents and purposes, opposed in the long run.

As far as I am in concern , I want to stress two points , ragardind the Casino.
First , Casino is alredy is done deal in Toronto area. The issue is not wheather it will be bilt , bur where.

Second , in my humble opinion , Casino in the siburbs will be geared more to Toronto area residents , than in Downtown , where it be geated more to the tourists , strangly as it sounds...

By the way , I spent few hours in Niagara Fall Casino 2 weeks ago and wasted only $1...
 
As far as I am in concern , I want to stress two points , ragardind the Casino.
First , Casino is alredy is done deal in Toronto area. The issue is not wheather it will be bilt , bur where.

Second , in my humble opinion , Casino in the siburbs will be geared more to Toronto area residents , than in Downtown , where it be geated more to the tourists , strangly as it sounds...

By the way , I spent few hours in Niagara Fall Casino 2 weeks ago and wasted only $1...

... pardon?
 
Also, I find it a bit disconcerting that a complex as gigantic and (relatively) new as the North MTCC is already considered prime for redevelopment. Says alot about our feckless and disposable development culture in this city...
 
It's clear enough what Saynotofaux was saying, although you may disagree. Stop being so Waspy.
 
It's clear enough what Saynotofaux was saying, although you may disagree. Stop being so Waspy.

I wasn't saying I didn't understand Saynotofaux, I was clearly confused by renvel's comment:

As far as I am in concern , I want to stress two points , ragardind the Casino.
First , Casino is alredy is done deal in Toronto area. The issue is not wheather it will be bilt , bur where.

Second , in my humble opinion , Casino in the siburbs will be geared more to Toronto area residents , than in Downtown , where it be geated more to the tourists , strangly as it sounds...

By the way , I spent few hours in Niagara Fall Casino 2 weeks ago and wasted only $1...

Aside from the typos, I was confused by him saying that this is a "done deal". As for the "Stop being so Waspy" remark, your attitude isn't needed here.
 
It's clear enough what Saynotofaux was saying, although you may disagree. Stop being so Waspy.

Waspy? Can you explain that?

Saynotofaux's personal anecdote is irrelevant. As for the casino, even the operators can't get any straight numbers about what it will contribute to the city (if anything at all). The casino is not a done deal, and no one knows if any neighbouring suburb will want it parked on their real estate either. Any casino in Toronto would poach visits to other casino's - including Niagara. It's hotel, shops, restaurants and theatre would poach visitors from other nearby hotels, shops, restaurants and theatres in the city because casino revenues would subsidize those on-site facilities.

I think too much casino-love revolves around glitzy marketing, the promise of some shiny buildings and a couple of dreamy conceptual soopertall buildings. As a business proposition, the applicants have not made a great case for why the city should have such a facility.
 
Waspy? Can you explain that?

Saynotofaux's personal anecdote is irrelevant. As for the casino, even the operators can't get any straight numbers about what it will contribute to the city (if anything at all). The casino is not a done deal, and no one knows if any neighbouring suburb will want it parked on their real estate either. Any casino in Toronto would poach visits to other casino's - including Niagara. It's hotel, shops, restaurants and theatre would poach visitors from other nearby hotels, shops, restaurants and theatres in the city because casino revenues would subsidize those on-site facilities.

I think too much casino-love revolves around glitzy marketing, the promise of some shiny buildings and a couple of dreamy conceptual soopertall buildings. As a business proposition, the applicants have not made a great case for why the city should have such a facility.

I don't find the conceptual drawing of the proposed casino on MTCC area glitzy. I find the design mediocre and somewhat boring. The only attractive part is the decking over of the railway. The office/residential part of the MTCC building looks good.

I'm not pro or against the casino, but what is wrong with added shops, hotels, restaurants, theatre in a casino? Nearby hotels, shops, theatres and restaurants wouldn't be directly competing. They will probably have a circque de soleil which none of the theatres show. And maybe have some mini concerts. It's not going to directly compete with a full length concert. As for restaurants, what is wrong with having some inexpensive places to eat? Not everyone living downtown can afford to eat in downtown. Their prices are quite high especially for a family. Having cheaper options is good, even if it's subsidized. At least the govt doesn't have to do the subsidizing. As for hotels, it will just offer more hotel choices. If there was a lack of hotels, they wouldn't be building so many hotels right now. Some people visiting might just want cheaper rates for hotels. Should we force them to pay more for a regular hotel? If the tourists spends less for hotels, they might end up spending more outside the Casino area. Some just go there to visit the surroundings and not actually for gambling.

It's like coffee. People who go to Starbucks which cost more, won't go to Tim Hortons of Coffee Time even if they cost less. Likewise, people who swear by Timmies won't step foot into a Starbucks. The stores all sell coffee, but they cater to different people.
 
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Casino

I don't find the conceptual drawing of the proposed casino on MTCC area glitzy. I find the design mediocre and somewhat boring. The only attractive part is the decking over of the railway. The office/residential part of the MTCC building looks good.

I'm not pro or against the casino, but what is wrong with added shops, hotels, restaurants, theatre in a casino? Nearby hotels, shops, theatres and restaurants wouldn't be directly competing. They will probably have a circque de soleil which none of the theatres show. And maybe have some mini concerts. It's not going to directly compete with a full length concert. As for restaurants, what is wrong with having some inexpensive places to eat? Not everyone living downtown can afford to eat in downtown. Their prices are quite high especially for a family. Having cheaper options is good, even if it's subsidized. At least the govt doesn't have to do the subsidizing. As for hotels, it will just offer more hotel choices. If there was a lack of hotels, they wouldn't be building so many hotels right now. Some people visiting might just want cheaper rates for hotels. Should we force them to pay more for a regular hotel? If the tourists spends less for hotels, they might end up spending more outside the Casino area. Some just go there to visit the surroundings and not actually for gambling.


It's like coffee. People who go to Starbucks which cost more, won't go to Tim Hortons of Coffee Time even if they cost less. Likewise, people who swear by Timmies won't step foot into a Starbucks. The stores all sell coffee, but they cater to different people.

I'm totally agree with you.

CIRQIE LE SOLEIL alone may bring the new category of tourists , that othevise even wouldn't consider to visit Toronto...
 
I'm totally agree with you.

CIRQIE LE SOLEIL alone may bring the new category of tourists , that othevise even wouldn't consider to visit Toronto...


Funny you should say that, the only time my parents make the 2 hour to drive to Toronto is when Cirque du Soleil is in town.
 
Waspy? Can you explain that?

Saynotofaux's personal anecdote is irrelevant. As for the casino, even the operators can't get any straight numbers about what it will contribute to the city (if anything at all). The casino is not a done deal, and no one knows if any neighbouring suburb will want it parked on their real estate either. Any casino in Toronto would poach visits to other casino's - including Niagara. It's hotel, shops, restaurants and theatre would poach visitors from other nearby hotels, shops, restaurants and theatres in the city because casino revenues would subsidize those on-site facilities.

I think too much casino-love revolves around glitzy marketing, the promise of some shiny buildings and a couple of dreamy conceptual soopertall buildings. As a business proposition, the applicants have not made a great case for why the city should have such a facility.

And that's a bad thing because....? It's business, if you ran a business, but didn't want to steel other competitors customers, you'd be out of business pretty damn fast. I'm not saying yes or no to the casino, but as for attracting new business to Toronto, that's a good thing. The more business the better for us. Quite frankly, if other cities can't compete, then they need to make their product more appealing if they wish to succeed, and it's nothing personal, but the more jobs we can create due to increased business in Toronto, the better.
 
My mistake, I was referring to the responses to Renvel's comment which i thought was clear enough. I'd tend to agree that a Casino is a done deal somewhere in the Toronto region.
 
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Visiting the site I must say that conceptually it makes a lot of sense for a casino if the objective is to optimize tourist revenues as a percentage of total revenues. We are also talking about an either or scenerio but I could see this as more of a multiple casino strategy by OLG. One massive one in the 905 targeting local costumer with vast seas of parking and a smaller more entertainment oriented casino downtown specifically targeting tourists. Although again, personally I think the probability of City approval on that issue is less than 50% now.

P.S. on the renderings. I feel they are conceptual at best. Talking in depth about what they look like or how they appear in the skyline is good fun but don't take it too seriously.
 

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