Toronto shootings

[TrickyRicky]

My point being that the violent intent hasn't changed among young men in the criminal underclass but the outcome of their dispute can be more disproportionate when guns are involved.

I employ a guy who was involved in the criminal underclass in the 60's and the guys he rolled with were mostly of British, Ukrainian, Polish, German, Irish etc. Many of them are indeed dead or in jail but they didn't really use or have access to hand guns. While knives and pipes and even fists are perfectly good deadly weapons there is a big difference in outcome between a young man lacking empathy and wisdom who assaults someone in a blind rage using his fist vis a vis a gun.

In other words I'm actually making the opposite argument to the NRA that it's the tool not the user that is the primary problem. We can try to change the culture to reduce the instance of violence among young men and I think we are actually succeeding to an extent but this kind of behaviour will always exist. Again contrary to popular wisdom I suspect that one of the best tools of crime prevention among young men is actually distractive behaviour rather than education or legal enforcement. What I mean is that things like video games and internet porn are probably as effective crime prevention measures as education, legal enforcement, social justice initiatives etc. (which is not an argument against such measures but just a comment on them in the greater context)

 

[steveintoronto]

My point being that the violent intent hasn't changed among young men in the criminal underclass but the outcome of their dispute can be more disproportionate when guns are involved.[...]

This! Guns 'offload' the consequence of actions, and by doing so, greatly amplify the result. It isn't the only factor to deal with, but a very multiplicative one.

Also something you'll often hear 'old-timers' (old lags) say: "These punks have no honour". Shooting guns into crowds of innocents oversteps a line that alarms even hardened criminals.

 

[buildup]

There is no black community.

Not to get too pedantic , but Blacks themselves refer to "the Community". No one is saying its a monolith. That's unfortunately where identity politics leads.

 

[buildup]

People commit crimes, not groups. Otherwise, we could round up whatever group you suggest and arrest them for the sin's of other group membersThere is no black community.

This is silly post modernist thinking. Anyone with any common sense knows, for example, that males of any race aged 18-28 are a more violent subset than the Bingo crowd. So they are monitored more closely as a result.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Not to get too pedantic , but Blacks themselves refer to "the Community". No one is saying its a monolith. That's unfortunately where identity politics leads.

"Blacks"? Why not throw a "The" in front of that to close the circle you're drawing?

I get the sense you're depending on Canadian politeness here. You know you're being intentionally racial in your language, in the belief that no one here will tell you to shut it and leave. I'm no Mod so can't kick you out, but I have an Ignore button, so bye.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What I mean is that things like video games and internet porn are probably as effective crime prevention measures as education, legal enforcement, social justice initiatives etc. (which is not an argument against such measures but just a comment on them in the greater context)

Unfortunately video game also costs money. Nevermind "social justice initiatives" - afterschool, rec programs can soak up that excess energy - but that's also some of the first things to get cut, and you won't see the impact years down the road. Someone should do a time-delayed correlation study between cycles of social services cutback and episodic violent crime peaks.

On another note - just how many would attribute the current wave to specific communities and subcultures other than "black people in general" at first sight? You should ask someone who is black whether they get singled out simply because of the colour of their skin instead of going on and on about identity politics. Like who are these "blacks" we are talking about, exactly?

Also something you'll often hear 'old-timers' (old lags) say: "These punks have no honour". Shooting guns into crowds of innocents oversteps a line that alarms even hardened criminals.

Triads, Mafia and whatnot is far more structured, with more elaborate social controls and eye on the bigger picture - the current batch is just unpredictable, but probably have far less staying power in the long run.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

In other words I'm actually making the opposite argument to the NRA that it's the tool not the user that is the primary problem. We can try to change the culture to reduce the instance of violence among young men and I think we are actually succeeding to an extent but this kind of behaviour will always exist. Again contrary to popular wisdom I suspect that one of the best tools of crime prevention among young men is actually distractive behaviour rather than education or legal enforcement. What I mean is that things like video games and internet porn are probably as effective crime prevention measures as education, legal enforcement, social justice initiatives etc. (which is not an argument against such measures but just a comment on them in the greater context)

Except, we know crime to be higher in lower income demographics. The correlation to lack of HS education is huge w/some 2/3 of men incarcerated in the US lacking a HS education.

I wouldn't fail to agree 'distraction' is a partial solution, but 'internet porn' as you note or 'video games' requires the family to have sufficient funds for the computer and internet service, and probably enough space than a teen boy can make use of such in a private room.

Ergo, addressing social justice at some level improves access to distraction.

Alternatively, other distractions, such as after-school programs, access to the internet at Toronto libraries, etc. all require funds.

TPL has a proposal to extend hours which will require about 20M in additional operating funds each year; but will deliver more and longer Sunday hours and weeknight service to midnight at district branches.

A similar program for PFR hasn't even been proposed, but adding basic hours/service after mid-afternoon on weekends; and adding late-service (1am) on Fridays and Saturdays would probably cost in a similar range, if you added pool service (3-6 life guards) at those same facilities than 30-35M per year at a guess.

But when compared w/what society spends on prisons, courts and cops, never mind insurance, a relative drop in the bucket.

 

[Northern Light]

In reference to the above, it would require roughly 0.6% more city revenue per year to fund those 2 initiatives.

 

[steveintoronto]

Not to get too pedantic , but Blacks themselves refer to "the Community". No one is saying its a monolith. That's unfortunately where identity politics leads.

Let me add to that without agreeing or disagreeing: It seems Drake's reference to "the Six" isn't about area codes at all. I'll add more to that later when I have reference handy. It's to do with "Black" *communities* (plural).

Someone should do a time-delayed correlation study between cycles of social services cutback and episodic violent crime peaks.

Yeeaahhh....and it's not just Blacks, by any means. And I don't like to use such a general grouping, as it *isn't* "Blacks"...it's distinct groups that happen to be Black. Remove those groups from the stats, and I'm sure the overall crime stat for all Blacks will be as good or better than any others.

the current batch is just unpredictable, but probably have far less staying power in the long run.

Absolutely agreed. The reason they form gangs is because they can't stand on their own two feet. They'd be &%$#&*( in prison.

The lasting legacy though is the cycle of single parent family upbringings. Without having the patience to reference or detail at this time, "birth control" immediately comes to mind. Unfortunately, many of these pregnancies aren't 'unwanted'. They are wanted, for the wrong reasons.
More on that later, and I return to the term "societal".

 

[buildup]

"Blacks"? Why not throw a "The" in front of that to close the circle you're drawing?

I get the sense you're depending on Canadian politeness here. You know you're being intentionally racial in your language, in the belief that no one here will tell you to shut it and leave. I'm no Mod so can't kick you out, but I have an Ignore button, so bye.

Sail away Admiral into the fog. Your willfully blind attitude is actually condescending to the black community. Luckily, they themselves are open to discussing the challenges involved, which are indeed complex. Your virtue signalling would hold water if you were actually impacted by the violence, but you're immune so far. I think 90% of the people at Jane/Finch would prefer to see a much tougher stance on gun crime and carding since they live in the neighborhoods where the thugs operate.

 

[sixrings]

Sail away Admiral into the fog. Your willfully blind attitude is actually condescending to the black community. Luckily, they themselves are open to discussing the challenges involved, which are indeed complex. Your virtue signalling would hold water if you were actually impacted by the violence, but you're immune so far. I think 90% of the people at Jane/Finch would prefer to see a much tougher stance on gun crime and carding since they live in the neighborhoods where the thugs operate.

If that was true then these communities would not have protested police officers in their high schools. Yet they did. Because they don't trust the police. You can say it is all in their imagination but it is what it is. It will take years to rebuild that trust if it is even possible.

 

[Johnny Au]

What I mean is that things like video games and internet porn are probably as effective crime prevention measures as education, legal enforcement, social justice initiatives etc. (which is not an argument against such measures but just a comment on them in the greater context)

Unfortunately video game also costs money. Nevermind "social justice initiatives" - afterschool, rec programs can soak up that excess energy - but that's also some of the first things to get cut, and you won't see the impact years down the road. Someone should do a time-delayed correlation study between cycles of social services cutback and episodic violent crime peaks.

There's also amusement parks as well.

That did not prevent the Halloween Haunt shooting at Wonderland though.

There's also VR, escape rooms, laser tag, paintball, and all sorts of fun stuff as more productive means to manage aggression among youth. Governments could fund some of those stuff. Too bad the Ontario government had to close down Ontario Place.

 

[BurlOak]

There's also amusement parks as well.

That did not prevent the Halloween Haunt shooting at Wonderland though.

There's also VR, escape rooms, laser tag, paintball, and all sorts of fun stuff as more productive means to manage aggression among youth. Governments could fund some of those stuff. Too bad the Ontario government had to close down Ontario Place.

What is the status of Ontario Place.
I recall they spend ~$10M to refurbish it, and then just when it was to re-open, they decided to close it. There was no plan to do anything, so it sat idle for a while. I don't think it's open yet, is it?

 

[pman]

"Blacks"? Why not throw a "The" in front of that to close the circle you're drawing?

I get the sense you're depending on Canadian politeness here. You know you're being intentionally racial in your language, in the belief that no one here will tell you to shut it and leave. I'm no Mod so can't kick you out, but I have an Ignore button, so bye.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The lasting legacy though is the cycle of single parent family upbringings.

I don't buy the single parent causation. I was raised in the 1970s, when nearly everyone was getting divorced, and my mother raised my two brothers and me. We're all home-owning, good earnings, law abiding and decades married guys now.