adma
Superstar
They were responsible for a free-admission interlude, FWIW.
Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON
- Thread starter vistaway
- Start date
reinventingthewheel
Active Member
I fear this thread is becoming more toxic than the land mass under Ontario Place.
I don’t think there’s anything here worth getting so heated about. I mean sure, despite being built upon landfill, Ontario Place is a nice waterfront parcel. But it is so isolated and inaccessible that I just don’t see the business case for the city investing any money in it right now, the “do nothing” option is the cheapest and easiest right now.
I think we revisit once we’ve seen some redevelopment of exhibition land, which is already highly valuable without a reimagined Ontario Place – being adjacent to rapid transit and amenities, albeit arguably short on parks.
I don’t think there’s anything here worth getting so heated about. I mean sure, despite being built upon landfill, Ontario Place is a nice waterfront parcel. But it is so isolated and inaccessible that I just don’t see the business case for the city investing any money in it right now, the “do nothing” option is the cheapest and easiest right now.
I think we revisit once we’ve seen some redevelopment of exhibition land, which is already highly valuable without a reimagined Ontario Place – being adjacent to rapid transit and amenities, albeit arguably short on parks.
T3G
Senior Member
Alright, I'll complain.
Taxpayers should not be propping up wayward businesses. Any business. If they cannot survive on their own in the free market whose virtues they endlessly sing the praises of, they should go bankrupt. End.
Is that good enough? Have I fulfilled the qualifications required to have a problem with this?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
It's not THAT inaccessible. I'm old enough to remember when there were no condos around Fort York and when everything north of the Dufferin Gate was industrial wasteland. There are people there. There are bike trails. There's even transit right nearby, just poorly connected.
But more ot the point, that could and should have been resolved or more substantially addressed through this process. The Province owns OP and Toronto owns the Ex and what they should have done is work together on this whole thing. Instead they're building the "Ontario Line" - so named because it allegedly connects ONTARIO Place and the ONTARIO Science Centre. Except the Science Centre is being moved to Ontario Place and the subway isn't actually that close to there either. So the name is now dumb and in the meantime Therme has some lame shuttle bus plan so people can get from the subway to their spa.
I'm not surprised the Province didn't care to work with the city or that the City seems incapable of or disinterested a real plan for making the CNE grounds a year=round place, but it could have been done instead of all this. That's one of the big failures, IMHO, is keeping OP as a relatively isolated site instead of properly integrating that whole area into the urban fabric.
Yup. I think people forget they tried a bunch of different models at Ontario Place. In the 80s, for example, Forum shows were generally included with admission. Then there was that that free admission era. And I think it was then free admission but you had to pay for everything inside a la carte and then back to an admisison model... it changed many times.
Natika33
Active Member
Are people defending the move? I see some defending the Therme portion (including myself), but not many defending the move of the Science Centre. If they dropped the idea to move the Science Centre, it might actually lead to other good changes. For example, they wouldn't need to eat up an existing surface parking lot, so perhaps they could reduce the size of that ridiculously large underground parkade.
Natika33
Active Member
Slightly off topic, but has anyone considered simply replacing half the surface parking at the Ex with grass so people can do regular park stuff, play baseball/soccer, etc? Small town versions of the CNE (autumn fairs, music festivals, etc) take place in parks not parking lots, so just wondering if there are any reasons this couldn't also be done for the CNE.
Natika33
Active Member
Because they expect Therme to pay them rent and they've also gotten Therme to agree to invest towards the infrastructure rejuvenation and maintenance (it's not solely gov't money). Also, they're betting Therme, Live Nation, and the Science Centre move will bring more cars so they can collect more in parking fees. Clearly, they think they're going to reap more from this than they'll sow and they also think they'll reap more from this than the alternative plans considered (for example, the one submitted by Ontario Place for All). Disagree or agree, that's what they have bet on.
UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
To be clear, I am talking about what they're planning to do with OP in general. Perhaps "move" wasn't the best word I used to describe that here. My apologies.
JohnnyRaylander
New Member
They should be able to present a credible business plan outlining this, right? The problem is that we're all just speculating because of the opaqueness of selling (let's be real, a 99-year lease is tantamount to selling) prime public land. I see that the there could be a credible argument for Therme over any other private or public option but it's incumbent on the government to make that case. They haven't yet.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
This thread illustrates that there ought to have been a public debate about how to revitalize OP before the process was launched. But that isn't how modern conservative parties operate. They are authoritarian and decide public matters in private and shove the results up our ... well you know.
Natika33
Active Member
Ah, but then they wouldn't be able to hide the deal with Therme from Live Nation & vice versa. Less bargaining power.
Natika33
Active Member
There were public consultations. The public very clearly communicated they didn't want a casino or condos and they did want all-season family fun including a return of a water park. While I agree it might have been better had we all had the chance to weigh in on a 3 finalists' shortlist as we have for city projects, I think Therme comes pretty close to what Ontarians said they wanted, current naysayers aside.
AlexBozikovic
Active Member
A few pictures taken Thursday before the public meeting. The West Island, despite being neglected for decades, is not a dump. It is a beautiful landscape with a few bits of junk that need to be removed.
Northern Light
Superstar
There was no 'indoor waterpark' or spa before. Just to be clear on that. There were outdoor waterslides, bumper boats, a kids waterplay/splashpad.
Those took up a whole lot less room and were not on the west island either.
I can't agree to that at all.
Altec
New Member
Which is still a waterpark. A very small one but still a waterpark.