Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

allengeorge said:
That ship has not sailed. There’s a big difference between “line is not ready because of construction issues” (cue eye-rolling and ’standard’ talk about government waste and poor execution) vs. “the line has constant operational problems and has to be constantly taken in and out of service, and needs substantial rework”. The latter is different, and has resulted in an inquiry as well as a catastrophic loss in confidence.
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I would not underestimate the amount of eye-rolling that the general public is now throwing at the mention of Metrolinx.

A politician who announces a new project has to answer the question "How can you assure us that it won't get screwed up, like the last one?". And while they may understand the need for a project, they really don't have a reliable answer to that question any more in the transit realm. (The recent answer has been "P3", and that one is wearning pretty thin). And the accusation about "the last one" doesn't have to be real, or valid. It can be a cheap shot. But transit is becoming a place where it's easy to write newspaper articles alluding to failure and incompetence, and the public takes these as credible because while it may be the wrong sneaker, the shoe size matches.

Reminds me of the public opinion of the old Ontario Hydro (which I worked in for many years). In the 1980's it was viewed as fat, arrogant, unaccountable, monolithic.... but in that period the lights never actually went out. The things that went wrong (and there were plenty) were different than what the media portrayed, but by 1990 or so the public pressure forced government to act. (Constructively, as it turned out.... but it was painful).

I am convinced that ML is heading for the same kind of hit-the-wall that Ontario Hydro experienced in the 1990's - breakup of silos into separate companies, firing of Board and senior executives, business transformations, apply for your job, whatever.

Those of us who watch the industry, and those who work in it, know Metrolinx is guilty of many things, many of which don't bear on Crosstown or Ottawa. Doesn't matter politically. Doesn't matter if it's a sneaker or a stiletto heel, the foot size fits.

- Paul
 
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We almost have all the lines I envisioned for a city of Toronto subway system. These are the last projects I would do...

Extend Sheppard east & west (to mcoowan n Sheppard)
Eglinton crosstown east (to mcoowan n Sheppard)
Extend Ontario line north to atleast Don Mills(elevated)
Extend Ontario line west then north (that alignment I have no clue)
Waterfront east lrt
I also like that midtown go train line idea from Kipling to north Scarborough somewhere with an interchange at Summerhill

This give us 4 north south lines and 4 east west lines, not including GO lines
 
crs1026 said:
I would not underestimate the amount of eye-rolling that the general public is now throwing at the mention of Metrolinx.

A politician who announces a new project has to answer the question "How can you assure us that it won't get screwed up, like the last one?". And while they may understand the need for a project, they really don't have a reliable answer to that question any more in the transit realm. (The recent answer has been "P3", and that one is wearning pretty thin). And the accusation about "the last one" doesn't have to be real, or valid. It can be a cheap shot. But transit is becoming a place where it's easy to write newspaper articles alluding to failure and incompetence, and the public takes these as credible because while it may be the wrong sneaker, the shoe size matches.

Reminds me of the public opinion of the old Ontario Hydro (which I worked in for many years). In the 1980's it was viewed as fat, arrogant, unaccountable, monolithic.... but in that period the lights never actually went out. The things that went wrong (and there were plenty) were different than what the media portrayed, but by 1990 or so the public pressure forced government to act. (Constructively, as it turned out.... but it was painful).

I am convinced that ML is heading for the same kind of hit-the-wall that Ontario Hydro experienced in the 1990's - breakup of silos into separate companies, firing of Board and senior executives, business transformations, apply for your job, whatever.

Those of us who watch the industry, and those who work in it, know Metrolinx is guilty of many things, many of which don't bear on Crosstown or Ottawa. Doesn't matter politically. Doesn't matter if it's a sneaker or a stiletto heel, the foot size fits.

- Paul
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The next batch of projects - Hurontario, OL, EWLRT, SSE, and GO RER - are scheduled to open across the latter half of this decade to the early 2030s.

If those don't get screwed up - tough ask, I know - the public will forget Crosstown, especially if they're riding it by then (and it works. Please don't copy Ottawa, please don't copy Ottawa ...). I think Doug is firmly behind Metrolinx until the next election comes, and some successful projects would strengthen the case for status quo and more transit funding at Metrolinx.

For better or for worse, our current U/C projects will be too far to cancel by then. While I also hope we continue to build a steady pipeline of projects, our transit will be in much better shape at that time.

Though for the media, it's easier to be negative than positive when reporting about transit openings/costs.
 
Aplus23 said:
We almost have all the lines I envisioned for a city of Toronto subway system. These are the last projects I would do...

Extend Sheppard east & west (to mcoowan n Sheppard)
Eglinton crosstown east (to mcoowan n Sheppard)
Extend Ontario line north to atleast Don Mills(elevated)
Extend Ontario line west then north (that alignment I have no clue)
Waterfront east lrt
I also like that midtown go train line idea from Kipling to north Scarborough somewhere with an interchange at Summerhill

This give us 4 north south lines and 4 east west lines, not including GO lines
Click to expand...
Dream scenario could be a Line 4 loop like this, maybe 2050 timeline, hence the other extensions often mentioned included. Built off the exiting Subway/streetcar map.
TTC_SubwayStreetcardMap_2028_CP_2page.png
 
jcam said:
Dream scenario could be a Line 4 loop like this, maybe 2050 timeline, hence the other extensions often mentioned included. Built off the exiting Subway/streetcar map.View attachment 532090
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There is no need for the Ontario Line to loop.

Loop lines exist in cities because they are supposed to bypass the central core and connect secondary hubs to each other directly. And provide an alternate way for people to switch between radial lines.

The cities which have loop lines tend to have a roughly circular city around their downtown core. Toronto has Lake Ontario. The equivalent for a loop Line in Toronto would be a ‘n’ shaped line that allows you to transfer between Line 2 and 1 without passing through St George or BloorYonge.

The top of the loop has no reason to be interlined with the rest of the Ontario Line.

In fact it would be vastly preferable for a line that far out from the core to run alongside the 407/427/ 409 and be a suburban connector for Misisauga, Pearson, Vaughan, RHill, Markham and Pickering.
 
MrGoose said:
The top of the loop has no reason to be interlined with the rest of the Ontario Line.

In fact it would be vastly preferable for a line that far out from the core to run alongside the 407/427/ 409 and be a suburban connector for Misisauga, Pearson, Vaughan, RHill, Markham and Pickering.
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I would think the orbital portion of Line 4/OL would have a pretty different requirements/profile in terms of frequency, capacity, stop spacing, speed, perhaps vehicle configuration (more suburban/commuter oriented). It seems to me that an orbital line could get by with shorter trains, and maybe trains with higher operating speed would be warranted given the longer distances to be covered. We don't know exactly what will be used for Line 4, but ideally the 407 transitway rail line would have a service speed of at least 100-110kph and 2-4 km stop spacing to push the average speed closer to 50 or 60 kph.
 
afransen said:
I would think the orbital portion of Line 4/OL would have a pretty different requirements/profile in terms of frequency, capacity, stop spacing, speed, perhaps vehicle configuration (more suburban/commuter oriented). It seems to me that an orbital line could get by with shorter trains, and maybe trains with higher operating speed would be warranted given the longer distances to be covered. We don't know exactly what will be used for Line 4, but ideally the 407 transitway rail line would have a service speed of at least 100-110kph and 2-4 km stop spacing to push the average speed closer to 50 or 60 kph.
Click to expand...
I can even see a level of commonality with the OL making sense, but yeah, actually building to the same specifications, let alone through running, really doesn't make much sense to me.
 
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MrGoose said:
There is no need for the Ontario Line to loop.

Loop lines exist in cities because they are supposed to bypass the central core and connect secondary hubs to each other directly. And provide an alternate way for people to switch between radial lines.

The cities which have loop lines tend to have a roughly circular city around their downtown core. Toronto has Lake Ontario. The equivalent for a loop Line in Toronto would be a ‘n’ shaped line that allows you to transfer between Line 2 and 1 without passing through St George or BloorYonge.

The top of the loop has no reason to be interlined with the rest of the Ontario Line.

In fact it would be vastly preferable for a line that far out from the core to run alongside the 407/427/ 409 and be a suburban connector for Misisauga, Pearson, Vaughan, RHill, Markham and Pickering.
Click to expand...
Only advantage to a loop (other than a 407 transitway line) might be ability to shuttle vehicles from a secondary yard....assuming the next yard would be at one of the north ends of a U, that would be a very long deadheading journey.
 
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