Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[allengeorge]

My _opinion_ is that the CPC is not particularly serious or interested in expanding public transit projects. I don’t know that they would cancel anything, but the lack of new money, and barely any mention in their platform is…a pretty bad sign.

That said, everyone has to weigh different factors when voting. No party will be perfect. Please fact-check what I’ve said, and vote your conscience!

 

[Jimvee]

That's not really servicing new corridors; I, for one, am a proponent of extending this down Jane, which we know needs a transit line. It would be high-capacity, provide a direct route into downtown (avoiding another west-side OL-required situation) and would be less expensive than a full subway and faster than an LRT.

If South Etobicoke needs another transit line, I would have Waterfront West LRT connect to Roncesvalles & Queen, or run down Lake Shore Blvd, then have the 510 (but not the 511) travel to Long Branch. Build a Queensway LRT and route the 501 down it. I think this is a more intuitive approach; Queen remains E-W the whole time, while the 509 stays along the waterfront. I'm sure the TTC, if it comes to this, will have better O-D analysis than I do.

I thought they were, too.

I hear what you're saying however if the Ontario line was originally designed to be a relieve line than Kipling makes a great deal of sense since their is a lot feeding line 2 from there. Anyone who rides that line from the beginning can tell you trains are already full by the time they reach Islington. That being said if the Milton line became regular service through Kipling that would change the whole discussion.

 

[DirectionNorth]

I hear what you're saying however if the Ontario line was originally designed to be a relieve line than Kipling makes a great deal of sense since their is a lot feeding line 2 from there. Anyone who rides that line from the beginning can tell you trains are already full by the time they reach Islington.

Currently, people ride N-S to Line 2 to go downtown. When the Eglinyon LRT opens, that will change. Besides, a north south line would also attract riders - no need to transfer at St. George, ride an E-W bus to Jane and then get a one-seat ride into downtown.

That being said if the Milton line became regular service through Kipling that would change the whole discussion.

So does the ECLRT, and EWLRT.

 

[DSC]

Does anyone know O'Toole's position on transit expansion in Toronto?
I'm a legit non-partisan who hasn't made a decision on the upcoming election - but I'm definitely curious if anyone has seen him comment on or address all the money coming to Toronto for transit.

Ty if you know.

This is behind a pay wall but "words are cheap'... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...t-for-subways-and-rail-projects-acknowledges/

Erin O’Toole pledges support for subways and rail projects, acknowledges Conservative platform offers no new cash​

 

[crs1026]

Edit: Whoops… I’ve re-invented the Waterfront West LRT . With the OL coming, the business case for this LRT becomes all the more compelling. The City really should expedite planning for this route, such that construction can be coordinate with the OL and RER

The idea may not be original, but you are on to something. The WWLRT deserves a second look now that the OL has been fleshed out to its Exhibition terminus, and the Park Lawn GO station has been confirmed. Its rationale, and its function, may have changed.

The WWLRT's potential to bring riders from Humber Bay and west into the downtown may be reduced and less critical. GO from Park Lawn to Exhibition (or East Harbour) opens new routings that might be useful, and still serving the downtown rider, and connecting towards North York.

Perhaps the tie-in from west end streetcar lines to OL is what's actually needed. Extend the Long Branch streetcar east to OL and terminate the "Queen" 501 at Sunnyside. That might improve the 501 by reducing the bunching issues (heck, so many cars get short-turned anyways).

Putting a streetcar on Dufferin just seems sensible as the downtown intensifies westward...Spadina, Bathurst, then Dufferin. Maybe all the way to Eglinton.

There's a lot of development along the Queensway. I can see adding a line to Sherway Gardens.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

He says he’ll complete the priority projects in the GTA. When asked why the party platform doesn’t contain any funding around that, he responded that all of this would come from ‘existing funding’.

I'm not sure what new funding is in the Liberal platform ... though the one recently announced project that comes to mind, that wouldn't be in the Conservative platform would be the recent Liberal promise to fund full RER-like service on the Milton line.

Also, it wouldn't include funding for the yet un-funded projects, such as the provinces promise of the Sheppard East subway extension, not to mention other proposed Metrolinx projects, such as various BRTs, and LRT extensions to Brampton, along with a Line 5 extension to Pearson, and a Line 6 extension past Humber College. Though I'm not sure what the Liberals are promising on this.

And then there's the city's portion of the expansion. As far as I know, the feds have only funded the Bloor-Yonge station expansion. Still to come (I thinK) is funding for the new Union station streetcar platforms, and streetcar tracks on Queens Quay East, etc. Not to mention the Line 5 extension east to University of Toronto -Scarbough, and on Sheppard east of McCowan.

 

[Rainforest]

The idea may not be original, but you are on to something. The WWLRT deserves a second look now that the OL has been fleshed out to its Exhibition terminus, and the Park Lawn GO station has been confirmed. Its rationale, and its function, may have changed.

The WWLRT's potential to bring riders from Humber Bay and west into the downtown may be reduced and less critical. GO from Park Lawn to Exhibition (or East Harbour) opens new routings that might be useful, and still serving the downtown rider, and connecting towards North York.

Perhaps the tie-in from west end streetcar lines to OL is what's actually needed. Extend the Long Branch streetcar east to OL and terminate the "Queen" 501 at Sunnyside. That might improve the 501 by reducing the bunching issues (heck, so many cars get short-turned anyways).

Putting a streetcar on Dufferin just seems sensible as the downtown intensifies westward...Spadina, Bathurst, then Dufferin. Maybe all the way to Eglinton.

There's a lot of development along the Queensway. I can see adding a line to Sherway Gardens.

- Paul

One consideration against extending the OL west from the Exhibition terminus is the desire of Metrolinx to use OL for the Union relief. They would like the transfers at both East Harbor and the Exhibition to divert the GO riders from Union.

And, they are already setting themselves to fail at East Harbor. During the AM rush, will it really make sense for the Union-bound riders to alight at East Harbor, and then try to squeeze into a westbound OL train that will be quite full at that point? I don't think so. Riders will only transfer if their destination in downtown is much closer to an OL station than to any GO station.

However, the Exhibition interchange can have a role in relieving Union. As long as Exhibition remains the terminus, the eastbound trains running from there won't be very full, and can be conveniently used by GO riders arriving from the west. Furthermore, some of the LSE riders might choose to pass Union, then transfer to OL at the Exhibition, and backtrack a bit, if that allows them to avoid crowds.

If / when the OL is extended further west, the situation will turn into something similar to East Harbor: no incentive to transfer as the trains are already full.

From that point of view, it is probably a good idea to leave the OL Exhibition terminus in place, and connect the Waterfront West LRT to the same. And for Dufferin, either install a partly tunneled streetcar that connects to Exhibition, or wait for "RL-2", say in the Dundas corridor through downtown, and route the western side of that line up Dufferin.

 

[Patrick98]

One consideration against extending the OL west from the Exhibition terminus is the desire of Metrolinx to use OL for the Union relief. They would like the transfers at both East Harbor and the Exhibition to divert the GO riders from Union.

And, they are already setting themselves to fail at East Harbor. During the AM rush, will it really make sense for the Union-bound riders to alight at East Harbor, and then try to squeeze into a westbound OL train that will be quite full at that point? I don't think so. Riders will only transfer if their destination in downtown is much closer to an OL station than to any GO station.

However, the Exhibition interchange can have a role in relieving Union. As long as Exhibition remains the terminus, the eastbound trains running from there won't be very full, and can be conveniently used by GO riders arriving from the west. Furthermore, some of the LSE riders might choose to pass Union, then transfer to OL at the Exhibition, and backtrack a bit, if that allows them to avoid crowds.

If / when the OL is extended further west, the situation will turn into something similar to East Harbor: no incentive to transfer as the trains are already full.

From that point of view, it is probably a good idea to leave the OL Exhibition terminus in place, and connect the Waterfront West LRT to the same. And for Dufferin, either install a partly tunneled streetcar that connects to Exhibition, or wait for "RL-2", say in the Dundas corridor through downtown, and route the western side of that line up Dufferin.

I think the relief comes from people who would normally be getting on the subway at union having an option to get on the subway before union and not have to go through union in the first place.
Someone who would be ending their trip at union in the first place wouldn't change trains to the Ontario line, they would just stay on the same train.

 

[crs1026]

Here's the response from the ML Engage question I submitted on how they will build the Spadina and Bathurst stations, especially with respect to maintaining streetcar service. Seems to lean towards a mined solution at those locations. Note that they are in shale at that point.

Thats good news for surface transportation during contruction. Cost? That's Doug's problem

Thank you for reaching out. Our plan is to maintain streetcar service during construction, and we are working closely with the City and TTC to keep Toronto moving. This is a work in progress, and we will share more on these plans once they are finalized.

Please know that any temporary or planned disruptions to existing transit service will be communicated as early as possible using a number of communications channels to ensure everyone gets the information they need to keep moving.

Regarding excavation, our priority is to keep our construction footprints slim, property impacts to a minimum, and construction sites safe. We are exploring a number of techniques to construct the Ontario Line, including tunnel boring, sequential excavation or mining, and cut and cover methods. Current plans in this area envision using the sequential excavation method (SEM) to tunnel through this area.

Techniques will vary based on the safest, most effective approach for the type of ground we’re working in and how much space is available to carry out the work. In this area of the city, we plan to tunnel through deep, sturdy layers of shale, which will help significantly reduce noise and vibration during construction and operations and allow us to use the SEM/mining construction technique. Any approach we take will be respectful of surrounding community spaces.

Our project teams addressed questions about construction methods in this area during our virtual open house last night, which you can watch here.

Thank you again for writing. Please do not hesitate to reach out if you have further questions and consider signing up for our newsletter.

- Paul

 

[Amare]

I'm surprised they gave you such an in-depth and deep explanation to your question @crs1026. Nice work!

 

[superelevation]

One consideration against extending the OL west from the Exhibition terminus is the desire of Metrolinx to use OL for the Union relief. They would like the transfers at both East Harbor and the Exhibition to divert the GO riders from Union.

And, they are already setting themselves to fail at East Harbor. During the AM rush, will it really make sense for the Union-bound riders to alight at East Harbor, and then try to squeeze into a westbound OL train that will be quite full at that point? I don't think so. Riders will only transfer if their destination in downtown is much closer to an OL station than to any GO station.

However, the Exhibition interchange can have a role in relieving Union. As long as Exhibition remains the terminus, the eastbound trains running from there won't be very full, and can be conveniently used by GO riders arriving from the west. Furthermore, some of the LSE riders might choose to pass Union, then transfer to OL at the Exhibition, and backtrack a bit, if that allows them to avoid crowds.

If / when the OL is extended further west, the situation will turn into something similar to East Harbor: no incentive to transfer as the trains are already full.

From that point of view, it is probably a good idea to leave the OL Exhibition terminus in place, and connect the Waterfront West LRT to the same. And for Dufferin, either install a partly tunneled streetcar that connects to Exhibition, or wait for "RL-2", say in the Dundas corridor through downtown, and route the western side of that line up Dufferin.

The sense I get is that by then with GO operating RER style, you can expect a decent number alighting from OL trains to travel to Union on GO, remember Southcore and the areas directly North of Union are major employment centers

 

[crs1026]

The sense I get is that by then with GO operating RER style, you can expect a decent number alighting from OL trains to travel to Union on GO, remember Southcore and the areas directly North of Union are major employment centers

There will be plenty transferring, but also likely some will eschew the transfer and just walk the extra steps - similar to people choosing to walk south from Line 2 rather than transfer to Line 1 for the last stop or two... and similar to people choosing to walk to Union from as far north as College rather than take the subway down to the GO. Often faster and more pleasant, depending on weather. And then there's that transfer fare thing.

- Paul

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There will be plenty transferring, but also likely some will eschew the transfer and just walk the extra steps - similar to people choosing to walk south from Line 2 rather than transfer to Line 1 for the last stop or two... and similar to people choosing to walk to Union from as far north as College rather than take the subway down to the GO. Often faster and more pleasant, depending on weather. And then there's that transfer fare thing.

- Paul

I suspect being on a subway is a rather "sticky" mode - and transferring just to get to Union has more friction - people won't do it unless there is a significant reason (e.g. getting to Southcore, vis regular MINT) given the time savings is probably minimal relative to convenience otherwise. I think the transfer is probably going to be stronger inbound from GO to OL instead.

AoD

 

[officedweller]

One consideration against extending the OL west from the Exhibition terminus is the desire of Metrolinx to use OL for the Union relief. They would like the transfers at both East Harbor and the Exhibition to divert the GO riders from Union.

And, they are already setting themselves to fail at East Harbor. During the AM rush, will it really make sense for the Union-bound riders to alight at East Harbor, and then try to squeeze into a westbound OL train that will be quite full at that point? I don't think so. Riders will only transfer if their destination in downtown is much closer to an OL station than to any GO station.

...

They could short turn trains at East Harbour to give transferring passengers an empty train.
They may even be able to time them when Go Trains are scheduled to arrive.
Vancouver SkyTrain runs a short turn train to alleviate crowding from transferring Millennium Line passengers at Commercial-Broadway Station in the morning rush hours (pre-Covid, anyways).
But as mentioned, it depends on the individual and what their final destination is.

 

[innsertnamehere]

This image from the Housing Now site consultation last night at Don Mills / Eglinton shows a nice 3D massing of the OL alignment in this area. Notably, the OL station is shown as being quite a bit north of the intersection. This would make transfers from the Crosstown problematic. The platform also looks too short though, hopefully it extends further south closer to Eglinton in the actual plans.