Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[interchange42]

You know that no one is talking about money on this one yet.

42

 

[torontologist]

Eventually the DRL will be extended west of downtown as far as Dundas West.

Not necessarily. The western extension (if it even happens) could curve down to meet a new "secondary" Union station at the Bathurst Yard, or to an RER interchange in Liberty Village, or to the Exhibition grounds because of an Expo/Olympics/Whatever.

The most shortsighted bit about the DRL is not extending Phase 1 to Spadina/Bathurst to relieve the streetcars, and prepare for future development in the area. I asked a planner why they decided to end Phase 1 in the Financial District, and his answer was "This was the area of study preferred by citizens in consultations". OK, consultations are great, but if we can throw in a jog to the Unilever site because it makes sense, we can add two more stations to the western end.

I suspect if they did that, the Relief Line would look a little too "downtown", and suburbanites would flip their sh*t. God forbid we build any transit that doesn't serve someone politically.

 

[andrewpmk]

North of Davisville, bus service remains on Yonge due to the large gaps between stops. Bus service on the entire Yonge line also remains during rush hour. Elsewhere in the world, surface transit also runs above subways to provide more local service. A good example is the F Line in San Francisco, which runs above BART and Muni Metro. I don't think the King and Queen streetcars should necessarily be removed.

The streetcar service is slow, unreliable and constantly gets detoured due to special events and construction. Most people hate using it and actively avoid it if possible. I doubt it if many people are going to want to use streetcars if a subway replaces them. Also I think that building the subway would require that the streetcar line be shut down for an extended period of time (so King cars would be detoured onto Queen).

Given that operating the streetcar system costs a lot of money, I can't see why anyone would want to keep the streetcars if the DRL goes far enough west that it duplicates them. If the subway replaces the King streetcar then the 504 streetcar should be removed (except for the section on Broadview). The 501 Queen would remain as is but would probably see a big drop in ridership. Also stations on the new line probably will be close enough together that there is no need for a local bus service.

I'm sure this will be a controversial issue at city council but removing the 504 streetcar would save the TTC a lot of money.

 

[LNahid2000]

The streetcar service is slow, unreliable and constantly gets detoured due to special events and construction. Most people hate using it and actively avoid it if possible.

Really? Who are the 53,000 people using the 504 King then? Also, for local service the streetcar may still be faster than the subway (i.e. if your origin and destination is between two stops).

 

[ehlow]

North of Davisville, bus service remains on Yonge due to the large gaps between stops. Bus service on the entire Yonge line also remains during rush hour. Elsewhere in the world, surface transit also runs above subways to provide more local service. A good example is the F Line in San Francisco, which runs above BART and Muni Metro. I don't think the King and Queen streetcars should necessarily be removed.

If a bus line ran on Yonge all the way downtown frequently like on Market St in SF (which has streetcars, buses, bike lanes, underground streetcar and subways), it would be well used. Especially this month where "reduced speed zone" and frequent emergency alarms are slowing the subway to a crawl the whole way north of Bloor.

I wouldn't be surprised if the TTC express buses, Uber Hop, cycling etc. have a boost in ridership now as people seek alternatives to the subway.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Really? Who are the 53,000 people using the 504 King then? Also, for local service the streetcar may still be faster than the subway (i.e. if your origin and destination is between two stops).

Some form of realignment of streetcar services is probably unavoidable, but I have a feeling the DRL is being used by some as a trojan horse to achieve ends that have nothing to do with improving public transit but to increase road access.

I mean, there is one easy way to show that - if the argument is that having DRL on Queen meant removing of existing tracks, sure - I will suggest that the sidewalk should be widened and Queen be changed to 3 travelling lanes total. Surely we can argue for that given the reduction in stops and increase in transit capacity will lead to higher degree of pedestrian traffic.

AoD

 

[Edward Skira]

The most shortsighted bit about the DRL is not extending Phase 1 to Spadina/Bathurst to relieve the streetcars, and prepare for future development in the area. I asked a planner why they decided to end Phase 1 in the Financial District, and his answer was "This was the area of study preferred by citizens in consultations". OK, consultations are great, but if we can throw in a jog to the Unilever site because it makes sense, we can add two more stations to the western end.

I suspect if they did that, the Relief Line would look a little too "downtown", and suburbanites would flip their sh*t. God forbid we build any transit that doesn't serve someone politically.

The main reason for the Relief Line is to deal with the Yonge line overcrowding. Going west now doesn't help that significantly. First things first. Build it from the core to Sheppard and then look westward. If there's money for both then by all means do both but I suspect it'll be hard enough just paying for the line to Sheppard. I don't expect anything in the west for many decades.

 

[crs1026]

The main reason for the Relief Line is to deal with the Yonge line overcrowding. Going west now doesn't help that significantly.

Well, some number of the people who we are wanting to divert away from Yonge and Bloor will be destined not for Yonge and University but for somewhere west of there. There is a very healthy transfer to streetcars from Line 1 today. This number will grow as the west of University zone is developed. These folks will be a lot likelier to choose the DRL routing if it takes them right to their destination.

I don't know if there is data available on this question, but it should be looked at.

- Paul

 

[44 North]

Well, some number of the people who we are wanting to divert away from Yonge and Bloor will be destined not for Yonge and University but for somewhere west of there. There is a very healthy transfer to streetcars from Line 1 today. This number will grow as the west of University zone is developed. These folks will be a lot likelier to choose the DRL routing if it takes them right to their destination.

I don't know if there is data available on this question, but it should be looked at.

- Paul

Agreed. And the cross-downtown DRL U was basically the DRL for a number of years (in the original Big Move and post-TC plans). So perhaps a compromise between U and Long could work: say, take it as far Bathurst - but with the tail tracks and extraction shaft at Trinity Bellwoods.

 

[Edward Skira]

Well, some number of the people who we are wanting to divert away from Yonge and Bloor will be destined not for Yonge and University but for somewhere west of there. There is a very healthy transfer to streetcars from Line 1 today. This number will grow as the west of University zone is developed. These folks will be a lot likelier to choose the DRL routing if it takes them right to their destination.

I don't know if there is data available on this question, but it should be looked at.

You mean people coming from Kennedy Station and going to Bathurst or Spadina and Queen actually go to Yonge, head south to Queen and then walk or take the streetcar across? Wouldn't most stay on Bloor and get off at Spadina or Bathurst and then take a streetcar south? I don't see a lot of people using the Yonge line this way. Build the DRL long first and get the maximum Yonge relief and then, if there's money left over, take the line westward as far as is affordable.

 

[salsa]

You mean people coming from Kennedy Station and going to Bathurst or Spadina and Queen actually go to Yonge, head south to Queen and then walk or take the streetcar across? Wouldn't most stay on Bloor and get off at Spadina or Bathurst and then take a streetcar south? I don't see a lot of people using the Yonge line this way.

What about people who live around Don Mills, who take the bus to the Yonge line?

 

[Edward Skira]

What about people who live around Don Mills, who take the bus to the Yonge line?

The would have a DRL stop at Don Mills and Eglinton or Don Mills and Lawrence. No need to take a bus to Yonge anymore. And that would mean real relief on Yonge.

 

[torontologist]

Agreed. And the cross-downtown DRL U was basically the DRL for a number of years (in the original Big Move and post-TC plans). So perhaps a compromise between U and Long could work: say, take it as far Bathurst - but with the tail tracks and extraction shaft at Trinity Bellwoods.

Exactly my point. For a minimal (relatively speaking) increase in investment, there's a lot to gain by going as far as Bathurst in terms of Yonge/University relief and streetcar relief, as well as an ideal extraction shaft. Then they can focus on building Phase 2 up to Sheppard without having to worry about Phase 3 in the West End for 20-30 years.

 

[Euphoria]

If we want optimum transfer and dispersal from the busiest bottlenecks in the city (Strachan, Liberty Village, Union, Yonge side of the Yonge-U subway), then the DRL should at minimum reach as far as Queen and Gladstone for transfer to the northern end of the ST/GO RER platform at the new Liberty Village station. The King streetcar ROW will be the transfer at the southern end of the platform (unless the Liberty Village station is located farther south).

Another option is to send the DRL south at Bathurst to a new intermodal station at Bathurst and Front (Bathurst Yard). I'd like to see both built eventually: the DRL running west along Queen then north to Dundas West, with a spur running down from Queen and Bathurst to Front. The city would be wise to preserve that chunk of land just west of Bathurst (no farther west than the proposed Fort York pedestrian bridge, as that will connect the linear park of 'Under Gardiner' with the new east-west street at the south end of Liberty Village). Maybe at some point, in addition to an intermodal station there, we'll see a new Gardiner exit/entrance there, making it possible to remove the elevated Gardiner east of Strachan. I realize that could be many decades away, but we don't want development to eliminate that option. As for streetcar lines: keep them intact. All major cities have duplicate subway lines in the busiest areas of the city. My guess is that 20-30 years after building the DRL, we'll wish we kept the streetcars as added capacity. Better to have more transit options than less, not to mention the transit-oriented aesthetic streetcars create at street level. There's something beautiful about the Queen and King cars, especially if they get their own ROW's.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The main reason for the Relief Line is to deal with the Yonge line overcrowding. Going west now doesn't help that significantly.

Maybe not significantly, but it will help. While the bulk of riders transferring at Bloor-Yonge are from the east, some do come from the west.

If anything, the U to Dundas West will significantly help the 504 and 505 more than Bloor-Yonge. Why can't it be a Reflief Line for those routes too?