Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[kEiThZ]

As scarberian put it, it comes down to 'relief'. How much relief will the YUS loop get from each alignment and more specifically, how much relief Yonge/Bloor will get. To me it would seem that the trip generators then for a DRL would not be residents of the core but workers travelling into the core and tourists. So the debate comes down which alignment captures the most downtown office workers and the most popular entertainment/tourist attractions.

Darren you cannot make the argument that we should forget about the GO riders and force them to make two transfers in the core. They are riders just like you and I and they pay the same fare as us. Misplacement of the DRL just to prioritize relatively fewer downtown riders over thousands of commuters coming into the core daily could well result in reduced overall system ridership as the extra transfer compels some of those riders to take their cars instead. It's in the city's best interest to cater to the maximum amount of riders dispassionately. That ensures maximum benefit for the maximum amount of riders. If the ridership is there for a queen subway, so be it. If not, Front it'll be. Heck, for all we know it could turn out to be Dundas.

 

[RedRocket191]

I disagree about Portlands. I simply dont think that the city would allow more condos so close to our lakeshore. It cuts off the lakeshore to the rest of the city. It would be insane if they tore down part of the Gardiner only to have it replaced by condos.

Perhaps you should check out the Waterfront redevelopment precinct plans at Waterfront Toronto. There are plenty of residences and employment planned in the area, and the tear-down of the Gardiner could allow for more development.

If you're afraid of a wall of condos then no, you won't find that. There are strict height and urban design regulations and public space along the shoreline will be preserved. But if you're afraid of condos, period, then prepare to get all up-in-arms...

 

[kEiThZ]

It would be insane if they tore down part of the Gardiner only to have it replaced by condos.

Too late. The wall is already in place even with the Gardiner still there.

I disagree about Portlands. I simply dont think that the city would allow more condos so close to our lakeshore. It cuts off the lakeshore to the rest of the city.

How so? It's not quite in the core, which is why it does not cut off the core from the waterfront. And that's why it needs a subway stop, to get the tens of thousands slated to live in that district into the core. It's a whole district that's been set aside to be developed. And the only patch of land left that's close to the core and suitable/open for development. Are you saying that the city would do nothing with it, simply so that the rest of the city won't be cut off from the waterfront? Then how do you explain the curtain of glass and steel along the waterfront today? These days you can barely see the water while driving along the Gardiner. At least the Portlands won't have that effect as most of the district simply extends out from the shoreline.

 

[Darren B]

Keith, I never said we should forget the needs of the 905ers entering Union. I said that we should focus on the needs of high density areas in Toronto. If one group of people need to transfer from DRL to YUS, then it should be the group with the lesser number.

I have 2 friends who come in on the Lakeshore GO line and get off at Danforth to see either me, or Exhibiton see another friend who lives on Queen West. Im alway sursprised how we'll walk to meet them there, but they're always surprised when we suggest walking back from the station. It turns out we spend 6 bucks on what turns out to be a 5 minutes cab drive.

Thats why I'm for a line in Queen as it would serve the need of more high density neighbourhoods who will use the TTC 5 or more days a week.

 

[CDL.TO]

CDL.TO, this isnt about me, but about the trends I see everday, 7 days a week living in this city. I still predict that this subway should attract those who are currently subway and streetcar riders.

My opinion isn't just about the trends I see everyway, 7 days a week living and working in this city. It's also about employment statistics, population figures, and development trends. Of course this subway should attract those who are currently subway and streetcar riders, that's the point! That's the 'R' in DRL.

Those stats you refer to about the financial district predate the ongoing commercial development at Bay/Adelaide, the Trump Tower at Bay/Adelaide and the condo development in the Victoria/Shuter area. Thats a sign of the times as there is more land just south and just north of Queen that can and will be developed. Portlands/Lakeshore or whatever we're going to call it is limited in land because of its proximity to the lake. This subway would better serve the needs of this city if took that in consideration.

Okay, the stats predate Bay/Adelaide (52 floors). They also predate RBC Dexia, Telus, PWC, and MLS (over 100 floors of office space), all closer to Front. They ignore Trump (a hotel, not an office), but also ignore Ritz. The only condos I'm familiar with at Victoria and Shuter is Pantages and Opus. Closer to front I'm familiar with the Distillery, London, Pinnacle Centre, L Tower, Maple Leaf Square, Infinity, City Place, Element, the multitude of City Place towers, Waterpark City, Malibu, Tip Top, Liberty Village, and many more. Thousands and thousands of units being built.

Go check out this map and listing of downtown developments from the Post. Is there development on Queen? Sure. Is there far, far more development around the Front corridor? Definately.

Check out that map of available development lands that I referred you to earlier. Development is primarily happening around Front, NOT around Queen.

This subway would better serve the needs of this city if took where development is and will be happening into consideration.

Wellington is whatever distance it is from Front. That was not the main point I was making. Im referring to the distance from Front to the Entertainment distance. And we can agree that its not just 2 blocks, and that the Entertainment District is closer to Queen then it is to Front

Even though I did just argue that it is two blocks from Front, I'll agree that the bulk of the Entertainment District is closer to Queen than Front. But I would also say that the bulk of the Entertainment district is closer to Spadina than University, but does that mean that no one rides the University subway to the Entertainment district?

Exhibition and Liberty Village can be walking distance from Queen for those who are willing to walk that far. Thats a better trade off then having a subway stop on rail land in the middle of the Exhibition grounds. Such a station will not serve the needs of those people who live in high density areas along Queen West anymore then Lawrence west over the Allen attracts pedestrian traffic.

No one has called for a subway stop in the middle of the Exhibition grounds (I ask again if you have even looked at the maps posted?). Yet again, you say that a Queen stop serves those heading to the Exhibition, but an Exhibition stop doesn't serve those heading to Queen. You continue to contradict yourself.

Oh, and Lawrence West over the Allen attracts a fair amount of pedestrian traffic. There's a shopping mall right next door. Have you ever been there?

I'm for this line replacing the dependency on the Queen and King streetcar for most people, and a new grid of North South bus routes created to tie into both the Bloor line and the Queen section of the DRL. The more riders we get off the King and Queen car, the better it will be for the city. These are current needs that will help develop future needs. A Lakeshore alignment is subject to future, ie potential, trends

A Front corridor WILL divert people from the Queen and King streetcars. A Front Street route will serve CURRENT development better than Queen. There's more to Downtown Toronto than Queen Street.

 

[kEiThZ]

Keith, I never said we should forget the needs of the 905ers entering Union. I said that we should focus on the needs of high density areas in Toronto. If one group of people need to transfer from DRL to YUS, then it should be the group with the lesser number.

That's the contention of many of us here....that this group would be inner and outer suburbanites ( or outer core commuters from the Portlands, Lakeshore, etc.) not local core residents.

Thats why I'm for a line in Queen as it would serve the need of more high density neighbourhoods who will use the TTC 5 or more days a week.

Their needs could also be met by improving streetcar and LRT service as well.

Why the argument about folks who only use the subway 5 days a week? What about tourists? They are significant chunk of riders outside of peak hours. I am willing to bet that ridership from the ACC and Skydome (anybody who was raised in Toronto for more than a decade will call it that) alone after a game rivals any ridership gains from clubbers heading home on any night of the week.

Now its not that I support one or the other alignment. I'll wait to see the studies which will show which alignment has the best ridership. If it's Queen, so be it. However, we are pointing out here, that if you look at the plans that are there down the road and the development restrictions along Queen it's unlikely that they'd get a subway right away. Improved local ridership along Queen is simply unlikely to compensate for the 'relief' thats necessary at Yonge-Bloor, which itself is needed to extend the Yonge line into the 905. And the potential for the DRL goes even beyond that if the line is extended to Don Mills as Scarberian pointed out.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

scarberiankhatru, my earlier comment (just above yours) explained the walking distance issue. Exhibition, ACC, and even Rogers Centre (yes its Rogers Centre) are event hosting places. Queen has high desnity residences on avenues both to its north and south side. These people want transit use every day of the week. Their everday needs should be accomdated before the needs of someone visiting an event.

I disagree about Portlands. I simply dont think that the city would allow more condos so close to our lakeshore. It cuts off the lakeshore to the rest of the city. It would be insane if they tore down part of the Gardiner only to have it replaced by condos.

Your explanation is ridiculous. If people will walk from Queen to the Ex grounds, they will walk from Front to Queen (which is a shorter distance!). North of Queen is mostly regular houses, and if we're going to call them "high density," then south Markham is "high density," too, and deserves a subway, too...suddenly, such qualifiers aren't very good at justifying transit lines, are they?

For someone repeatedly noting the trends he sees every day living in Toronto, you don't seem to have noticed the massive residential developments around and south of Front. CityPlace is just the biggest and most visible part of this. There's some land around Queen that can be redeveloped, but there's *vastly* more land along the railway/Front that will be redeveloped (and with much more than just condos). Exponentially more.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Putting in a subway, in most cases, will bring high density development along it. So even if it were only low or medium density today, in a decade or two after it opens, the surroundings will change.

Ie.

So do not look at what there is now, but what could develop over the years to come.

 

[Darren B]

CDL.TO, Bay and Adelaide is more then just that 52 storey building. The developer is building 2 more complexes in that block both of which will be 43 and taller.

I used to live north of Yorkdale, and I went to that mall alot at Lawrence, probably every weekend actually. I also went the odd time during the week to vist a friend who worked the CIBC building nearby. I know that riders do walk there. But development along that stretch of subway was stunted due to the highway, the same as the development will be stunted if the DRL is built on rail land. I recall Moscoe once sugesting that the Allen/Lawrence be ceiled and turned into a defacto tunnel, so that the space above it can be better used by the public, as it currently is underused.

I agree that there is more to downtown then Queen. The area immeditiatly around Union is served well enough by Union and King and St. Andrew stations. The Queen/Broadview and Queen/Bathurst areas will not be equally served if the DRL is built along Lakeshore or along the rail-corridor

 

[adma]

Interesting, Hwy 11 already had painted lines...

 

[MisterF]

Too late. The wall is already in place even with the Gardiner still there.



How so? It's not quite in the core, which is why it does not cut off the core from the waterfront. And that's why it needs a subway stop, to get the tens of thousands slated to live in that district into the core. It's a whole district that's been set aside to be developed. And the only patch of land left that's close to the core and suitable/open for development. Are you saying that the city would do nothing with it, simply so that the rest of the city won't be cut off from the waterfront? Then how do you explain the curtain of glass and steel along the waterfront today? These days you can barely see the water while driving along the Gardiner. At least the Portlands won't have that effect as most of the district simply extends out from the shoreline.

This is a bit off topic, but there's no wall or curtain blocking anything. Why should drivers have a view of the water from the Gardiner? It's not on the waterfront! Toronto is a city of high rises that stops at the last major street before the water. It's no different from Hong Kong or Sydney or Chicago.

Now if you could barely see the water while driving along Queen's Quay, then the "wall of condos" argument would have some merit.

 

[Darren B]

Your explanation is ridiculous. If people will walk from Queen to the Ex grounds, they will walk from Front to Queen (which is a shorter distance!). North of Queen is mostly regular houses, and if we're going to call them "high density," then south Markham is "high density," too, and deserves a subway, too...suddenly, such qualifiers aren't very good at justifying transit lines, are they?

For someone repeatedly noting the trends he sees every day living in Toronto, you don't seem to have noticed the massive residential developments around and south of Front. CityPlace is just the biggest and most visible part of this. There's some land around Queen that can be redeveloped, but there's *vastly* more land along the railway/Front that will be redeveloped (and with much more than just condos). Exponentially more.

How is it ridiculous? Again, we're talking about 5 days a week use vs the occasional visit to the Ex. If we run the line along the western rail lands, then it will be conveniant for those visiting the Ex, instead of those who live along Queen west and currently pack articulated streetcars. These people are obviously coming from somewhere in order to pack those streetcars. How can you compare packed articulated streetcars along Queen west to Markham?

 

[MisterF]

Misplacement of the DRL just to prioritize relatively fewer downtown riders over thousands of commuters coming into the core daily could well result in reduced overall system ridership as the extra transfer compels some of those riders to take their cars instead. It's in the city's best interest to cater to the maximum amount of riders dispassionately. That ensures maximum benefit for the maximum amount of riders. If the ridership is there for a queen subway, so be it. If not, Front it'll be. Heck, for all we know it could turn out to be Dundas.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that a Queen alignment would prioritize relatively fewer riders than Union based on GO ridership. More people ride the downtown streetcars than the GO lines.

It'll be interesting to see the results of the study that the TTC has been instructed to do.

 

[Darren B]

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that a Queen alignment would prioritize relatively fewer riders than Union based on GO ridership. More people ride the downtown streetcars than the GO lines.

It'll be interesting to see the results of the study that the TTC has been instructed to do.

Yeah, I think alot will be riding on this study. I think many councillors will wait for this study to decide if they should further back the DRL

 

[Torontovibe]

Wow, there seems to be a lot of passion about a DRL. Glad I'm not the only one. I pick Queen St. but anywhere south of Dundas would make me happy.