Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[nfitz]

The building standards of 1914 would not have escalators nor elevators nor computers nor the current fire controls nor current electrical standards (knob and tube were standard then) nor many of the living standards we take for granted and expect. All of which add to the price tag.

Also construction inflation rate is often much higher than the CPI. It's been running about 6% to 7% a year for the last decade, compared to about 2% for the CPI.

 

[Darren B]

And what do vacations have to do with a subway alignment?

Actually vacations have a lot to do with my argument. People want a subway they can use everyday of the week, and not just Mon-Fri. There is currently nothing on the Portlands, and along that stretch of Lakeshore that needs to be serviced by a subway. Like I said in earlier post, there are no major events going on at Wellington West. That stretch of Queen is bustling with activiity all week long. The Entertainment district is a block away. You're looking at 100k or more people within a block of Queen street. The DRL on Queen would probably be the one line we can run later on a Saturday. If you doubt me, then try flagging a cab on a Saturday night along along Queen near Spadina and Bathurst.

 

[jamesbow]

I think both Queen and Front are out. The tunnel arrangements would complicate construction too much at Queen/Yonge and at Union. I think it's important to have a connection at Union, so that GO commuters can make use of the DRL to fan out across the downtown, but there is a fair argument for taking the line further north.

As i said before, the Adelaide and Wellington alignments make the most sense for me, as these offer the least complicated paths through the downtown. You can also build this thing without disrupting service on King and Queen. And Wellington has the advantage of offering connections at King, St. Andrew AND Union.

...James

 

[CDL.TO]

Who in this city (who would ride transit) goes on vacation every weekend?

The Entertainment District is also only two blocks away from Front. There's not much in the Portlands today, true, but Harbourfront and the Distillery are major destinations that better served by Front Street. For tourists, Front serves the ACC, Skydome, Exhibition Place, and Ontario Place much better.

As for Entertainment District crowds, is there any reason to believe that later operation on Saturdays would have any merit: are clubbers headed to destinations that a DRL would serve in any considerable numbers?

The differences between Front and Wellington are minor, as are King and Adelaide as each pair serve the same sectors of downtown. They are essentially the same alignment.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is currently nothing on the Portlands, and along that stretch of Lakeshore that needs to be serviced by a subway.

So what if there's nothing now? We are talking about building a subway with a timeline of nearly a decade. By then the redevelopment of those areas will have begun and there will be thousands of residents in those areas who will need subway service. By contrast, Queen may already be maxed out.

People want a subway they can use everyday of the week, and not just Mon-Fri.

The thousands of residents that the Portlands and Lakeshore developments bring will be using the subway well beyond Mon-Fri.

Like I said in earlier post, there are no major events going on at Wellington West. That stretch of Queen is bustling with activiity all week long. The Entertainment district is a block away. You're looking at 100k or more people within a block of Queen street.

That's all local ridership that could be well serviced by an LRT line or another subway constructed along queen sometime in the future. The line we are dealing with here has to do with relieving Yonge/Bloor....hence the R in DRL. That means diverting riders from outside the core who are heading downtown. That's the priority of the line, not sevicing riders within the core per se. Whichever, alignment diverts most of those riders should be the one picked. That means studying where many of them want to go.

For my money, that will probably be Front or Wellington. And. given the thousands of riders to be present in the decades to come in the Portlands and along Lakeshore, it just would not make sense to have those riders ride streetcars into the core. That just adds impetus to shift the subway south.

But, as I have pointed out, this does not necessarily preclude improved streetcar or LRT service along Queen or even a future Queen subway. However, I am willing to bet that once most of the non-local ridership is taken off Queen, the current services will prove to be adequate.

 

[dunkalunk]

Why not just walk the kilometre?

Touche, of course I would just bike...

 

[Darren B]

Who in this city (who would ride transit) goes on vacation every weekend?

Exactly why we need a line that serves their weekend needs as well. The only time Im in the Portlands on a weekend is the once in a blue moon trip to the St. Lawrence Market. I'll be north of King and south of College most weekends.

The Entertainment District is also only two blocks away from Front. There's not much in the Portlands today, true, but Harbourfront and the Distillery are major destinations that better served by Front Street. For tourists, Front serves the ACC, Skydome, Exhibition Place, and Ontario Place much better.

Actually Wellington is 2 blocks from Front in most areas. The Entertainment district, just like the majority of the larger Financial Towers are located between King and Queen. The ACC and Rogers Centre(Not Skydome, as it was renamed years ago) are all currently served very well with Union. Even with a Front street allignment, those locations are too close to Union to warrant a seperate station. Exhibtion place would equally be served with a Queen street alignment.

As for Entertainment District crowds, is there any reason to believe that later operation on Saturdays would have any merit: are clubbers headed to destinations that a DRL would serve in any considerable numbers?

I've used the subway in NYC on a weekend nights, and its bustling with people going out and about. Many of their lines are open 24/7. Lets not forget that the biggest mistake in TTC subway building is that they focus on having a line 'TO' a single location, when in fact for the line to be a healthy line that seves the people, then it should 'THROUGH' existing and busy locations. All of Queen between Bathurst and Broadview are bustling.

 

[ShonTron]

Wow. Such hostility with the all caps and bolded words. There's also no need for the semantics. Front and Wellington are really one block apart, even if there are small mid-block lanes and such in between.

I am still in favour of the Front-Railway alignment, though Wellington or even King are reasonable alternatives.

 

[Darren B]

I think both Queen and Front are out. The tunnel arrangements would complicate construction too much at Queen/Yonge and at Union. I think it's important to have a connection at Union, so that GO commuters can make use of the DRL to fan out across the downtown, but there is a fair argument for taking the line further north.

As i said before, the Adelaide and Wellington alignments make the most sense for me, as these offer the least complicated paths through the downtown. You can also build this thing without disrupting service on King and Queen. And Wellington has the advantage of offering connections at King, St. Andrew AND Union.

...James

Cut and Cover is going to happen wether we like it or not. If they can do it through 2nd Ave in NYC, then why not here. GO riders should not be the main target for the DRL. The DRL should serve the needs of those in the city and the busiest area of the city. GO riders can ride upto Queen and grab the DRL from there.

 

[Darren B]

Wow. Such hostility with the all caps and bolded words. There's also no need for the semantics. Front and Wellington are really one block apart, even if there are small mid-block lanes and such in between.

And it's SkyDome. Sorry.

Its not meant to hostile. Its just emphasis on a paticular word or serious of words. I can remove them if need be. And the Entertainment district is not 2 blocks from Front any which way you slice it.

 

[CDL.TO]

Exactly why we need a line that serves their weekend needs as well. The only time Im in the Portlands on a weekend is the once in a blue moon trip to the St. Lawrence Market. I'll be north of King and south of College most weekends.

The St. Lawrence Market isn't in the Portlands. It's about 1.8km away from the Portlands. I think we've seen the basis of your impassioned argument for Queen as a corridor for a multi-billion piece of infrastructure; it where "I'll be most weekends"

Actually Wellington is 2 blocks from Front in most areas. The Entertainment district, just like the majority of the larger Financial Towers are located between King and Queen. The ACC and Rogers Centre(Not Skydome, as it was renamed years ago) are all currently served very well with Union. Even with a Front street allignment, those locations are too close to Union to warrant a seperate station. Exhibtion place would equally be served with a Queen street alignment.

- *Pulls out a map*. Wellington is one block from Front for their entire lengths.
- The most intensive financial district employment is south of King Street and I have the Statistics Canada statistics to prove it.
- SkyDome (yes, I'll continue to call it that) is too close to Union to warrant a station? Have you even looked at the maps posted here and in the newspaper articles posted? The 1980s plan had stations at both John and Spadina.
- How on earth can you claim that Queen is too far from Front to be served by Front, but yet Exhibition (which is south of the Front Street extension corridor) is close enough to Queen to be served by it? You're contradicting yourself!

I've used the subway in NYC on a weekend nights, and its bustling with people going out and about. Many of their lines are open 24/7. Lets not forget that the biggest mistake in TTC subway building is that they focus on having a line 'TO' a single location, when in fact for the line to be a healthy line that seves the people, then it should 'THROUGH' existing and busy locations. All of Queen between Bathurst and Broadview are bustling.

I wouldn't describe Moss Park as "bustling". Plus, density, population, development, and jobs are a better measure of the value of a multi-billion dollar subway like than bustling-ness.

And the Entertainment district is not 2 blocks from Front any which way you slice it.

The Princess of Wales, the Royal Alex? They're on King Street and part of the Entertainment District and are 2 blocks from Front. A 300m walk, about the same as walking from Bay to York.

 

[rbt]

Cut and Cover is going to happen wether we like it or not. If they can do it through 2nd Ave in NYC...

This has been said a few times. 2nd Ave is a deep bore tunnel with cut and cover stations and utilities relocation. Exactly the same method of construction proposed for Spadina line and Yonge extensions. DRL will likely be the same.


Based on 2006 funding announcement for 2nd ave:

"The subway will be built with deep bore tunneling methods, avoiding the cumbersome utility relocation and cut-and-cover methods of past generations that made subway building disruptive for traffic, pedestrians and store owners. Only the stations will use cut-and-cover construction. Efforts are underway to minimize the impacts of this construction."

 

[Darren B]

CDL.TO, this isnt about me, but about the trends I see everday, 7 days a week living in this city. I still predict that this subway should attract those who are currently subway and streetcar riders.

Those stats you refer to about the financial district predate the ongoing commercial development at Bay/Adelaide, the Trump Tower at Bay/Adelaide and the condo development in the Victoria/Shuter area. Thats a sign of the times as there is more land just south and just north of Queen that can and will be developed. Portlands/Lakeshore or whatever we're going to call it is limited in land because of its proximity to the lake. This subway would better serve the needs of this city if took that in consideration.

Wellington is whatever distance it is from Front. That was not the main point I was making. Im referring to the distance from Front to the Entertainment distance. And we can agree that its not just 2 blocks, and that the Entertainment District is closer to Queen then it is to Front.

Exhibition and Liberty Village can be walking distance from Queen for those who are willing to walk that far. Thats a better trade off then having a subway stop on rail land in the middle of the Exhibition grounds. Such a station will not serve the needs of those people who live in high density areas along Queen West anymore then Lawrence west over the Allen attracts pedestrian traffic.

I'm for this line replacing the dependency on the Queen and King streetcar for most people, and a new grid of North South bus routes created to tie into both the Bloor line and the Queen section of the DRL. The more riders we get off the King and Queen car, the better it will be for the city. These are current needs that will help develop future trends. A Lakeshore alignment is subject to future, ie potential, trends

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Even with a Front street allignment, those locations are too close to Union to warrant a seperate station. Exhibtion place would equally be served with a Queen street alignment.

You're shooting your own argument in the foot by applying such random walking distances to the various alignments. If a Queen subway can serve the Ex, which is south of Front, then a Front subway can serve Queen at least as well (much better, even, since there's more condos and jobs and clubs south of Queen).

A lot depends on how far we think people walk after taking the DRL. If people will walk up to 750m to their final destination, a thru-Union alignment serves everything between Queen and the Lake and, likewise, a Queen alignment serves everything down to Front. If people will walk only 250m, though, a thru-Union alignment is less useful for Queen or Queen's Quay (another reason why both a DRL through Union and a separate Queen line might be desirable). But if people are only going to walk like two blocks, a Queen alignment is not a bit better for "relief" since people would transfer to the DRL and transfer again to the YUS loop to go south to all the office towers. Of course, they won't transfer twice, they'll just stay on the B/D line and transfer once...

There is no alignment the DRL can take that would help every YUS loop rider...which is fine because the point is to offer a good alternative to some, not all of them. We need to look beyond the YUS loop to really compare the utility of each alignment, but this can't be done in a sensible way if people dismiss everything at and south of Front as the edge of the earth and an uninhabited wasteland, which it clearly is not. There comes a point when tower after tower after tower in CityPlace or the Portlands starts generating more trips than a low-rise commercial strip that may not even still be trendy by the time the line is built, lined with neighbourhoods the city will not permit much additional development in.

The rules of the game would change quite substantially were the DRL to run up Don Mills, since massive numbers of people would take the DRL straight downtown and not travel to the Yonge or Danforth lines.

 

[Darren B]

scarberiankhatru, my earlier comment (just above yours) explained the walking distance issue. Exhibition, ACC, and even Rogers Centre (yes its Rogers Centre) are event hosting places. Queen has high desnity residences on avenues both to its north and south side. These people want transit use every day of the week. Their everday needs should be accomdated before the needs of someone visiting an event.

I disagree about Portlands. I simply dont think that the city would allow more condos so close to our lakeshore. It cuts off the lakeshore to the rest of the city. It would be insane if they tore down part of the Gardiner only to have it replaced by condos.