Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[smallspy]

Huh? I think you're confusing the Canada Line (>2b) for the Evergreen Line that ssiguy2 was talking about (11km, 1.4b).

*ahem*

It would appear to be so. My apologies.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'd have imagined the entire segment through the core would have to be quite deeply bored to get around the YUS, PATH and various utilities.

Then again, with the ECLRT, aren't they cut-covering any portion which passes under the YUS subway to avoid risking any damage to the existing tunnels? If they similarly had to cut-cover under the YUS in the core, it may also be easier to simply cut-cover between University and Yonge. Surely it's not practical to set up, launch, bore and extract for a 500m stretch.

Anyways, even if the core DRL section isn't appropriate for cut-covering, other sections surely could be. Pape between the Don Valley and Danforth as well as further south along Carlaw to wherever the DRL swings back west, for instance. Those roads aren't especially important to overall traffic flow, so congestion impacts would be minimal. And if you stacked the tunnels, you could probably keep 1-2 lanes open.

I would imagine you can't really avoid some degree of cut and cover for the interchange stations in any case. My point is the economic benefit for cut and cover for the core area isn't that obvious given the level of engineering complexity. I would imagine, like you've said, a better case for cut and cover could be made past the Don. Don't forget one thing though - cut and cover isn't an option where there isn't a convenient ROW available, and at the end of the day one really have to do some cost benefit analysis.

re: Stacking - unless one is absolutely desperate for space, I can't imagine it being a cheaper option given the need to dig deeper and have a stronger structure that would support a bi-level track arrangement.

AoD

 

[christiesplits]

I don't quite understand why Metrolinx wants to build DRL south rather than the Don Mills to Downtown route. The latter is obviously much urgently needed. If not then Eglinton-Yonge Station will become as bad as Bloor-Yonge today, nobody south of Lawrence will be able to get catch a train easily and Bloor-Yonge will probably be even worse than it is today.

I agree that Don Mills - Pape - Yonge should be the top priority. I also think, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that it might be more politically viable than the downtown "loop."

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Bamako great map. I would bring it up Dundas to Keele at least though.

 

[diminutive]

re: Stacking - unless one is absolutely desperate for space, I can't imagine it being a cheaper option given the need to dig deeper and have a stronger structure that would support a bi-level track arrangement.

I can't imagine it being cheaper either, but if one was deadly concerned about surface disruptions it should allow a good deal of roadspace to remain open during construction without being terribly expensive than a side-by-side tunnel.

Volumetrically, a tunnel which is 10m tall and 5m wide would be identical to a tunnel which was 5m tall and 10m wide, so I'm not sure where any huge cost premiums would come from. Looking at the profiles of the Canada line tunnels, the stacked tunnel dimensions don't seem to be heavily reinforced or anything compared to the side-by-side tunnels.

As you said, it will always be subject to cost-benefit analysis and it's impossible to make general rules about what would be better. When was the last time cut-cover was even considered in Toronto though? Even when running in the middle of ~25m suburban arterials, where there's more than enough space for any manner of cut-cover, it's off the table.

 

[M II A II R II K]

For King/Queen corridor they should spare no expense given the heavy traffic that would provide, including short range rapid transit options for convenience. Other places are currently doing it in even more dense and cluttered sub-surfaces and found a way to snake around them and fund the whole thing effectively.

 

[Jaye101]

I don't quite understand why Metrolinx wants to build DRL south rather than the Don Mills to Downtown route. The latter is obviously much urgently needed. If not then Eglinton-Yonge Station will become as bad as Bloor-Yonge today, nobody south of Lawrence will be able to get catch a train easily and Bloor-Yonge will probably be even worse than it is today. Seems to me that their main concern is hooking it up to the Georgetown rail corridor.

Of course all of the official planned routes for the line is totally inadequate. Planning needed to start on at least the entire Finch to Dundas West route two years ago if we want any hope of having a somewhat usable subway when Yonge North, Sheppard and Eglinton open in 2030.

You don't think St George will become overcrowded before Yonge-Eglinton? Really?

 

[nfitz]

You don't think St George will become overcrowded before Yonge-Eglinton? Really?

Surely the crowding at Eglinton is worse now than at St. George. Surely crowding at Eglinton will get worse quicker than at St. George when the Eglinton line opens (unless they add a second platform ... and I haven't seen one in the plans).

 

[Johnny Au]

Surely the crowding at Eglinton is worse now than at St. George. Surely crowding at Eglinton will get worse quicker than at St. George when the Eglinton line opens (unless they add a second platform ... and I haven't seen one in the plans).

A Spanish solution would also be good for Eglinton station.

 

[nfitz]

A Spanish solution would also be good for Eglinton station.

Translation - 3 platforms, similar to the Sheppard line at Sheppard-Yonge station, with the centre platform being for people getting off.

Oh, it would be good ... though even adding a second platform would help. I really don't see how Eglinton is going to function with a single platform, once the Eglinton line opens.

 

[Solid Snake]

Seems to me our only hope of DRL in the 2020s lies with Toronto winning the summer games in 2017 for 2024 if we bid.

Good news is that we stand a chance since North America will be the continent who will be the most overdue. What we learned from Tokyo's victory, the IOC wants a safe bid over uncertainty.

The quick ousting of Chicago for 2016 says that the IOC tries to keep a certain distance from the US after the scandal of Salt Lake City 2002. Canada with Toronto has the strongest chance to win them over Mexico.

We all know that it usually take an Olympic game for the Feds to sign big checks for transit lines. Montreal 1976 and Vancouver 2010 saw the feds and provinces either expanding and completing subway lines (Montreal green and orange line) and building a brand new one (Vancouver's Canada Line)

My hope for a DRL in the short term lies there

 

[Jaye101]

Surely the crowding at Eglinton is worse now than at St. George. Surely crowding at Eglinton will get worse quicker than at St. George when the Eglinton line opens (unless they add a second platform ... and I haven't seen one in the plans).

Eglinton (80,000 boardings), St. George (150,000). St George is currently a much busier station. When the Eglinton line and the University subway extension open St. George will become a serious concern. Remember, Eglinton West is also going to see a steep rise in ridership. When you factor this in with the fact that the west DRL would increase capacity on several crowded streetcar routes, there's no comparison.

The DRL south of Bloor is of far more importance than any extension north of it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You don't think St George will become overcrowded before Yonge-Eglinton? Really?

I never commented on St. George. I honestly don't know. St. George will become more crowded, but it doesn't have to deal with a new rapid transit line in a few years. My bet is that Eglinton-Yonge will be much more crowded than St. George. Who is overcrowded first is anybody's guess.

Eglinton (80,000 boardings), St. George (150,000). St George is currently a much busier station. When the Eglinton line and the University subway extension open St. George will become a serious concern. Remember, Eglinton West is also going to see a steep rise in ridership. When you factor this in with the fact that the west DRL would increase capacity on several crowded streetcar routes, there's no comparison.

The DRL south of Bloor is of far more importance than any extension north of it.

Anyone have any links to official estimates for ridership at Eglinton-Yonge?

My guess is that E-Y will be close to that or exceed the ridership of St. George.

Of course, E-Y, Bloor-Yonge and St. George all need to be rebuilt ASAP along with the full DRL being completed.

A Spanish solution would also be good for Eglinton station.

This is needed at Bloor-Yonge, Eglinton-Yonge and St. George imo

Seems to me our only hope of DRL in the 2020s lies with Toronto winning the summer games in 2017 for 2024 if we bid.

Good news is that we stand a chance since North America will be the continent who will be the most overdue. What we learned from Tokyo's victory, the IOC wants a safe bid over uncertainty.

The quick ousting of Chicago for 2016 says that the IOC tries to keep a certain distance from the US after the scandal of Salt Lake City 2002. Canada with Toronto has the strongest chance to win them over Mexico.

We all know that it usually take an Olympic game for the Feds to sign big checks for transit lines. Montreal 1976 and Vancouver 2010 saw the feds and provinces either expanding and completing subway lines (Montreal green and orange line) and building a brand new one (Vancouver's Canada Line)

My hope for a DRL in the short term lies there

I would be shocked if we get even the half assed Relief Line/Don Mills Subway (Dundas West to Pape or Don Mills to Downtown) by 2030. These things take a very long time to plan and even longer to build. And who knows when we'll get the Relief Line we actually need (Finch/Steels/Sheppard - Dundas West/Jane).

Perhaps it can come in time for the 2028 Summer Olympic Games if we have a mayor and council who actually believe in building useful subways that are desperately needed rather than small extensions that are too expensive, will be underused and break the rest of the rapid transit system (you know who and what I'm talking about). Of course this would require us being willing to spend a little more to expedite the process ($13 Billionish).

 

[BurlOak]

A "full" DRL that does everything everybody wants it to would be approximately 27km long and have at least 19 stations. If the TTC is smart they'll build it with 200m platforms in mind. This is enough for 8 or 9 cars, which provides a lot of extra breathing room because this line is going to be packed on day one.

Translation - 3 platforms, similar to the Sheppard line at Sheppard-Yonge station, with the centre platform being for people getting off.

Oh, it would be good ... though even adding a second platform would help. I really don't see how Eglinton is going to function with a single platform, once the Eglinton line opens.

I like the second option better. Think about the Yonge line and what we wished they would have done.

1. Yonge-Bloor Station 8 cars long (Maybe Union, Eglinton and Sheppard too) - every other station 6 cars long.
2. Yonge-Bloor Station 6 cars long with 3 platforms (Maybe Union, Eglinton and Sheppard too) - every other station as is - either centre or side platform.
3. All stations on the Yonge line with 7 car long stations.

I would say that the third option would have been the highest cost and the lowest capacity.

 

[nfitz]

Eglinton (80,000 boardings), St. George (150,000).

Yeah, that's what I thought. Eglinton appears busier. That's 80,000 per platform at Eglinton compared to only 75,000 per platform at St. George.

Seriously though ... the problem at Eglinton is that in morning rush, almost everyone is at the southbound platform, compared to St. George, where it is distributed more evenly.

St George is currently a much busier station.

In shear numbers yes. In terms of how crowded the platform is waiting for a southbound train? It's second only to Bloor-Yonge in my observations southbound. (northbound in PM peak though, Dundas seems the worst, with some others close behind).

I'd think Bloor platform at Bloor-Yonge, Eglinton, and St. George are all candidates for additional platforms at some point. Though I'm not sure how possible St. George would be.