kv1990
New Member
this is a little hyperbolic but it would almost be better to move the satiation further west and let people connect at street level ...
As much flaws as there is with the plan, it desperately needs to happen and we can't afford to keep pushing this back. This line has been proposed in some fashion or another for almost a century at this point. Again, it's really not ideal and I agree that there are flaws, but at this point we've delayed this far too long. This plan as a line on the map (neglecting the stations) is IMO the best proposal so far as it avoids tunneling as much as possible.Maybe @Northern Light was onto something with the suggestion of taking this back to the drawing board!
I'm not sure what the claim is when they say that this is "cheaping out". These trains are perfectly fine and are necessary for the relatively complex nature of the routing. Based on the renderings, these trains look even nicer than the TR's IMO. These trains would be considered full heavy duty in a lot of places in the world, the Toronto subway just has very wide trains compared to average (not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't mean we need to emulate it for the Ontario line at a steeper cost).. Cheaping out by buying lighter, shorter trains instead of the heavy duty subway spec trains common sense would suggest the line should run,
Same point I made earlier about the politics of all this. From somebody more eloquent than me...
I honestly think this can still be saved/ improved ... I hope ML and the city can work together and give the Osgoode Plaza option a serious look. I think that is the best proposal that saves the trees and the the heritage sites and also improves the public realm. And if they can improve the interchange between lines in the process that would be great!
I don't really have any other major issues with the line ... though i don't know how the interchange at Yonge and Queen is going to be like ...
Look at the Metrolinx website here:Curious as to where the plans of the stations are made public. I would love to go through them but I can't find any material in the Metrolinx website for the Ontario Line.
I suppose you'd still be able to access Osgoode Station from the existing in-street stair.This is the most alarming part of the blog post. Unless I'm interpreting things wrong, there is no direct connection between platforms. The only connection between in the lines is the Osgoode keyhole shaft. (Someone can confirm or correct if I'm wrong.) It appears there are engineering challenges that they are avoiding, but the shorter platform and platform placement don't appear to give any advantage to transit users.
Meaning a person entering the station at the new Simcoe entrance/a person who exits the western most door of a train, would have to walk the whole platform, exit the paid fare area, go up the escalators, re-enter the turnstiles and go back down the escalators if they intended to transfer to the university line.
I'm so glad that our "transit advocates" are advocating for more custom outdated technology rather than modern, off the shelf designs.Clearly we were all focusing on the wrong thing ... The more I hear about this project, the less I like it. Seems to me the only thing it has going for it as compared to the Relief Line is the expanded coverage. Cheaping out by buying lighter, shorter trains instead of the heavy duty subway spec trains common sense would suggest the line should run, the stupidity of the in-station connection, and the destruction of the public realm. Metrolinx is truly leaving behind a legacy that we can all be proud of.
Maybe @Northern Light was onto something with the suggestion of taking this back to the drawing board!
Apparently some people have gotten the idea into their heads that you can build a transit line without any impact whatsoever. You cannot build a transit line in a dense urban core without some impacts.I honestly think this can still be saved/ improved ... I hope ML and the city can work together and give the Osgoode Plaza option a serious look. I think that is the best proposal that saves the trees and the the heritage sites and also improves the public realm. And if they can improve the interchange between lines in the process that would be great!
I don't really have any other major issues with the line ... though i don't know how the interchange at Yonge and Queen is going to be like ...
I'm glad we agree that Metrolinx is awful, but you know as well as I do that we don't need another five years of delays to re-re-design the project so that everyone will like it.I know John, and I will talk to him about his piece, it was rushed, and ill-informed, as Steve Munro clearly demonstrates, Parsons didn't even get basic spelling right in their report. Several key considerations in terms of design are simply overlooked by oversimplifying this to be about trees, without addressing issues like a cumbersome transfer that verges on the absurd.
This is about so much more than trees. Its about competence. Which few, if any, believe Mx possesses.
Sorry, I don't find these two quotes to be compatible with each other.As much flaws as there is with the plan, it desperately needs to happen and we can't afford to keep pushing this back. This line has been proposed in some fashion or another for almost a century at this point. Again, it's really not ideal and I agree that there are flaws, but at this point we've delayed this far too long. This plan as a line on the map (neglecting the stations) is IMO the best proposal so far as it avoids tunneling as much as possible.
I'm not sure what the claim is when they say that this is "cheaping out". These trains are perfectly fine and are necessary for the relatively complex nature of the routing. Based on the renderings, these trains look even nicer than the TR's IMO. These trains would be considered full heavy duty in a lot of places in the world, the Toronto subway just has very wide trains compared to average (not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't mean we need to emulate it for the Ontario line at a steeper cost).
That is quite enough, thank you! Just because I do not agree with you on how the project should be executed does not give you a right to suggest I am somehow not a transit advocate, or question my motives. Everyone here clearly has the city's best interests in mind, we just have different visions on how to get there. Casting aspersions on one's motives derails the discussion and gives the forum a bad name.I'm so glad that our "transit advocates" are advocating for more custom outdated technology rather than modern, off the shelf designs.
Sorry, I don't find these two quotes to be compatible with each other.
I am aware that the proposed trains should be enough for the projected ridership as is known right now. However, I do not find this to be a convincing argument in favour of scaling down the rolling stock. No man is infallible and Metrolinx much less so, even they cannot account for everything that is going to happen in the future. Remember, the TTC streetcar order was supposed to be more than enough for the network at the time the order was put together in 2006 - but then, ridership grew on the streetcar network by 44% by the time the order was completed, and the numbers of cars required no longer ended up matching what we had on order. Why take that chance again? If the Ontario Line is such a deeply, truly, profoundly necessary project that we must stop at nothing and preserve nothing in order to get it done as soon as possible, would it not also therefore be logical that we equip it with the largest subway cars money can buy, so that it takes longer to reach its maximum capacity?
That is quite enough, thank you! Just because I do not agree with you on how the project should be executed does not give you a right to suggest I am somehow not a transit advocate, or question my motives. Everyone here clearly has the city's best interests in mind, we just have different visions on how to get there. Casting aspersions on one's motives derails the discussion and gives the forum a bad name.
As for your actual argument, that line of thinking is exactly what we don't need in transit (except for the part about off the shelf designs, but I highly doubt designing a 75 foot subway car that is otherwise standard in the parts it uses is an insurmountable task).
Transit is not supposed to be cutting edge, it's supposed to be functional. If the design still works (and manifestly it does, otherwise the TTC would have gone back to the drawing board for the proposed T1 replacement rather than building on more of the same), and there is no urgent argument in favour of doing so, such as wheelchair accessibility or energy efficiency, what need is there to change it, exactly? I'm not saying that this is what's going to happen to the Hitachi trains, but progress for progress' sake is what got us white elephants like the SRT. Ask any rider on the next subway platform you step on and I'm sure they'll agree, provided they are not Gadgetbahn enthusiasts, that having a proven type of vehicle, albeit with the regular comforts passengers have come to expect in the 21st century, would be superior to having something that is cutting edge and doesn't work.
And I don't see where you are getting the idea that this "technology" is outdated, anyway, considering I haven't actually said anything at all about the type of technology that should be used on the trains, just their length. If the new Hitachi things were the dimensions of a TTC subway car, but kept everything else intact, they'd hardly be out of date.
And why stop there? There is nothing about subway trains that is modern to begin with, they have been around for more than 150 years. If pushing technology to its limits is the goal here, why not make the Ontario Line into a maglev or something? Or ask Elon Musk to build his Hyperloop in its place?
Progress for progrsss' sake is bad.
Wherever I see interviews with NIMBYs they always have a reason why their particular cause is special and not NIMBYism. Rare is the NIMBY who is sufficiently self-aware of what their obstruction means on a wider scale. They all think they are doing the right thing and working for the betterment of their community/neighbourhood/city.Everyone here clearly has the city's best interests in mind, we just have different visions on how to get there.
I know John, and I will talk to him about his piece, it was rushed, and ill-informed,....
Wherever I see interviews with NIMBYs they always have a reason why their particular cause is special and not NIMBYism. Rare is the NIMBY who is sufficiently self-aware of what their obstruction means on a wider scale. They all think they are doing the right thing and working for the betterment of their community/neighbourhood/city.
I look forward to him explaining to you the difference between facts and optics and why young people are increasingly disillusioned with Boomer politics (as he alluded to in his piece). Do share how that conversation goes.
I look forward to him explaining to you the difference between facts and optics and why young people are increasingly disillusioned with Boomer politics (as he alluded to in his piece). Do share how that conversation goes.
By what known definition of the term am I a NIMBY for suggesting the trains on the Ontario Line should be subway scale instead of anything smaller?Wherever I see interviews with NIMBYs they always have a reason why their particular cause is special and not NIMBYism. Rare is the NIMBY who is sufficiently self-aware of what their obstruction means on a wider scale. They all think they are doing the right thing and working for the betterment of their community/neighbourhood/city.