Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[ssiguy2]

I think a lot of the future forecasts of the OL & Yonge will very much depend upon the success or failure of RER. RER is a 200 km subway in the making if ML decides to create it as such which of course requires complete fare integration and high frequency.

 

[MisterF]

Could've should've would've ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They could have made it a priority but didnt, they could have designed and tendered the two segments at the same time but didn't. When the Ontario Line was announced, the RLS was preparing the tunneling tenders. The RLN didn't even have a perefered route yet. It was way behind.

Yes it was behind, that's what I said. The fact remains that construction of the RLN could have started within a few years of RLS, which would have put completion sometime in the early 2030s. The timeline to get to Sheppard isn't an argument in the Ontario Line's favour. There's now no route to Sheppard chosen or even contemplated so we're further behind now than we were two years ago.

The Stouffville Line will run near Kennedy, 6km east of where the Ontario Line will end up. They're not exactly competing corridors.

Yes, the Stouffville line runs through the middle of Downtown Markham and is an existing corridor. A new subway running up Don Mills/Leslie would go through miles of low density subdivisions that turn their backs to the road. Going up Woodbine would go through miles of low density industrial lands. Neither one has the demand now or in the foreseeable future for a subway. It's a solution in search of a problem.

Markham, on the other hand - why not.

Well to start, enormous cost, very little benefit, and lack of demand.

 

[ARG1]

Yes, the Stouffville line runs through the middle of Downtown Markham and is an existing corridor. A new subway running up Don Mills/Leslie would go through miles of low density subdivisions that turn their backs to the road. Going up Woodbine would go through miles of low density industrial lands. Neither one has the demand now or in the foreseeable future for a subway. It's a solution in search of a problem.

The route on Leslie leads to Commerce Valley, the main GTA Technopark located at Highway 7 and Leslie, a fairly major employment center.

 

[MisterF]

The route on Leslie leads to Commerce Valley, the main GTA Technopark located at Highway 7 and Leslie, a fairly major employment center.

I'm familiar with the area. The existence of the business park doesn't mean it's worth it to build a subway through several kilometres of low density, car oriented subdivisions with very little transit demand to get there.

 

[Rainforest]

Well to start, enormous cost, very little benefit, and lack of demand.

It will take at least 25 years before an OL's extension north of Sheppard would be studied. We can make a good prediction now regarding the demand at that time.

 

[ARG1]

I'm familiar with the area. The existence of the business park doesn't mean it's worth it to build a subway through several kilometres of low density, car oriented subdivisions with very little transit demand to get there.

We're talking about an elevated light metro, not a subway. As Vancouver and Montreal show, it is worth it to build in these areas. At the very least, it can be justifiable in the same way an LRT is.

 

[turini2]

Would using Toronto Rockets (for Relief / Ontario Line) have made it more difficult politically (with the TTC unions) to implement a fully automated solution?

Many new or under construction "greenfield" Metro lines in the last 10 years or so have been driverless - Singapore, Grand Paris Express, Sydney Metro, Dubai Metro etc
Makes financial sense you're building a substantial new system or line, not just an extension or a branch of existing service.

 

[p_xavier]

Would using Toronto Rockets (for Relief / Ontario Line) have made it more difficult politically (with the TTC unions) to implement a fully automated solution?

We tried for the Montréal Métro for the Orange line to push for automation and it was a resounding no. Unions still hold much power.

 

[micheal_can]

We tried for the Montréal Métro for the Orange line to push for automation and it was a resounding no. Unions still hold much power.

Which is why the SRT failed.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Not sure about Langstaff GO. For all the problems of the RH GO line, Ontario Line will not get from Langstaff GO to downtown faster than the RH GO trains. Enabling 3 competing ways of traveling between the Richmond Hill Centre and downtown seem counterintuitive.

RH-GO might be a bit faster, but the trade-off for the Ontario Line here would be more destinations, more connections to other routes, and higher frequencies.

I have made my opinion on RH-GO known in the past on here. If we went with that scenario and sent the Ontario Line to Langstaff, I would simply discontinue RH-GO service. It's expensive to operate, very low ridership, impractical to upgrade, and doesn't allow for connections to East Harbour, Bloor, Eglinton, and only an impractical one at Sheppard. So in this fantasy scenario, we would only end up with two services (Yonge Line and OL) that serve different areas.

Space on the Bala Sub is the biggest issue. Looking at the corridor on google maps it seems wide enough, but without a study, can't say.

Markham, on the other hand - why not. The Woodbine & Hwy-7 area has much potential, and is not served by any GO line; the Stouffville line enters Markham much further east. The only issue is whether the OL will have any spare capacity left once it hits Sheppard.

I don't think we have to worry too much about high ridership between Hwy-7 and Sheppard on the Ontario Line, at least not in the first twenty years of operation.

 

[afransen]

If the line remains elevated then the transfer at Sheppard will be quite inconvenient. And going north of Finch will be nearly impossible because of power lines. Also building a bridge over 19 lanes of 401 traffic seems expensive.

So the line will probably go back underground somewhere north of York Mills.

This seems like motivated reasoning. All these technical challenges would likely be much cheaper to deal with above ground. A bridge seems expensive? Try tunneling!

 

[afransen]

Deep in the suburbs, it may make sense to use lighter elevated rail rather than extending light metro style service.

 

[allengeorge]

I love how everyone is building the relief line to Sheppard, Finch and beyond - even before the OL contract has been signed to bring it to Bloor (let alone to Eglinton)

 

[M II A II R II K]

Therell be a push to extend it to Finch if theres a Finch East LRT.

 

[MisterF]

It will take at least 25 years before an OL's extension north of Sheppard would be studied. We can make a good prediction now regarding the demand at that time.

What's going to change along that stretch of Don Mills and Leslie in the next 25 years? There's almost no opportunity for infill for most of its length and YRT route 90 has abysmal ridership. The TTC has several dozen bus routes with more riders.

We're talking about an elevated light metro, not a subway. As Vancouver and Montreal show, it is worth it to build in these areas. At the very least, it can be justifiable in the same way an LRT is.

Just about any metro technology can be elevated, including parts of the Toronto subway and hundreds of kilometres of older systems in other countries. How do you know a light metro can it be justified? What analysis has been done? What are the travel characteristics on that route?