Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[micheal_can]

Having new lines not only adds capacity but also extends the reach. Adding express lines on Yonge will only add capacity but not the reach. People will still be riding slow buses for half an hour before they even reach Yonge.

Also, it is very likely that adding express line on Yonge will be costlier because they will have to accommodate existing tunnels and stations, not to mention that it will be highly disruptive for an already congested line.

A new line won't have any of these problems, while it will also extend the reach of the subway system.

Are we relieving a line, or are we adding reach of the RT network?

I think, literally "Express Line 1" will be too expensive to build, if it has to be constructed under the active regular Line 1.

The best shot would be a new subway line running under Bay St in downtown, then swinging to the Yonge corridor somewhere between St Clair and Sheppard, and taking over the northern section of the existing subway. Davisville may be a good candidate to merge the two lines, since it is an above-ground station.

I am not suggesting it will be cheap. I am not suggesting it won't be disruptive. I am not suggesting it will be simple.

I am suggesting if the goal is to relieve a line, then some sort of express line is needed. A new line elsewhere is great for adding customers, but it will not relieve enough. 20 years from now, once this line is up and running and established, we will likely not see much of a reduction at the various choke points.

And when ever someone goes on about how amazing this line will be, I will point out that an express line following the existing line that is overcrowded would do more to relieve the line.

 

[north-of-anything]

It's better to use new lines to unlock more of the yellowbelt than to further increase the strain on stations that transfer with Line 1.

 

[syn]

I wish we'd focus on getting this line right first. Worrying about a RL2 seems pointless. Based on how things go here it might be a discussion for our grandchildren.

With the changes made so far, even extending the OL to Sheppard will have it's impact minimized due to vehicle and station choices.

The Yonge Line is already over capacity. Before COVID it wasn't uncommon for riders to experience overcrowding, and sometimes to a dangerous degree.

This is not only unsafe, it's unfair. It's even more unfair to the people traveling downtown from other parts of the city.

The current plan is inadequate. This line needs to see the same degree of investment we're seeing in other projects around the city, not less.

 

[Deadpool X]

Are we relieving a line, or are we adding reach of the RT network?

The reason this line is congested is because it does not have a parallel route for a huge part of the city.

The same reason why 401 is so congested despite being the widest highway in the city. There are no relieving parallel highways. Gardiner is too narrow and doesn't cross the city while 407 is too expensive.

If you want to relieve congestion on 401, you wouldn't keep widening it. You will instead add parallel toll free highways. (Not that we should spend money on relieving highway congestion when we can barely cough up for transit projects).

 

[Undead]

Metrolinx already hinted at this in a report from awhile back (it's in this thread somewhere). The RL2 looked like it would run from Woodbine to somewhere (Dundas West?) via Dundas I think.

Which report was that?

 

[micheal_can]

The reason this line is congested is because it does not have a parallel route for a huge part of the city.

The same reason why 401 is so congested despite being the widest highway in the city. There are no relieving parallel highways. Gardiner is too narrow and doesn't cross the city while 407 is too expensive.

If you want to relieve congestion on 401, you wouldn't keep widening it. You will instead add parallel toll free highways. (Not that we should spend money on relieving highway congestion when we can barely cough up for transit projects).

We did that - the 407, and the traffic is still a mess.

I think the OL is a great line to ad to the network, but I don't think it will be much of a relief of the Yonge section of Line 1.

 

[MisterF]

Are we relieving a line, or are we adding reach of the RT network?

Yes.

I am not suggesting it will be cheap. I am not suggesting it won't be disruptive. I am not suggesting it will be simple.

I am suggesting if the goal is to relieve a line, then some sort of express line is needed. A new line elsewhere is great for adding customers, but it will not relieve enough. 20 years from now, once this line is up and running and established, we will likely not see much of a reduction at the various choke points.

And when ever someone goes on about how amazing this line will be, I will point out that an express line following the existing line that is overcrowded would do more to relieve the line.

Your idea doesn't reflect the reality that a very large proportion of Yonge line ridership is coming from nowhere near Yonge. They're taking long bus trips to Yonge because it's the only rapid transit option. New lines would intercept riders before they get to Line 1, relieving it better than a new line under the existing one ever could. Not to mention that subway coverage really needs improvement in Toronto.

Your idea would be eyewateringly complicated and expensive while being less effective than just building new lines. When we have a dense web of subways like NYC, then maybe we can talk about building express lines like NYC. Until then it would be a waste of money.

 

[sacred]

An express line 1 can be RH RER. An extended Line 1 can meet RH just north of the 407. A bit of a mess north of the York sub, and one can dream of switching to the Don branch, but this is all 10-20 years away (and currently imaginary).

 

[W. K. Lis]

...

Your idea would be eyewateringly complicated and expensive while being less effective than just building new lines. When we have a dense web of subways like NYC, then maybe we can talk about building express lines like NYC. Until then it would be a waste of money.

Before the subways of NYC, there were elevated trains that ran over the streets.

From link.

Some parts of the current subway lines in NYC reuse the elevated lines for the subway lines.

From link.

 

[asher__jo]

We did that - the 407, and the traffic is still a mess.

I think the OL is a great line to ad to the network, but I don't think it will be much of a relief of the Yonge section of Line 1.

It's truly a shame the 407 is privately owned, but it happened. Not related to the argument, but all freeways in the GTA must be tolled.

 

[JSF-1]

Before the subways of NYC, there were elevated trains that ran over the streets.

From link.

Some parts of the current subway lines in NYC reuse the elevated lines for the subway lines.

From link.

Unfortunately that liberal use of elevation went out of style after WWII and is only really present in which could be called "1st Generation Subway Lines". Toronto's subway is a 2nd gen system and so elevation was not used (nor could it be given the alignment of the Yonge Subway). That said it kinda makes you wonder how different things would be if Toronto had gone through with the original 1911 proposal. Obviously Queen would have been a streetcar subway like what's in Boston but I wonder what Yonge would have been like since it was proposed as a full fledged subway and would have been a 1st generation line.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes.


Your idea doesn't reflect the reality that a very large proportion of Yonge line ridership is coming from nowhere near Yonge. They're taking long bus trips to Yonge because it's the only rapid transit option. New lines would intercept riders before they get to Line 1, relieving it better than a new line under the existing one ever could. Not to mention that subway coverage really needs improvement in Toronto.

Your idea would be eyewateringly complicated and expensive while being less effective than just building new lines. When we have a dense web of subways like NYC, then maybe we can talk about building express lines like NYC. Until then it would be a waste of money.

Well, by the time we have a network expansive enough to have the density you speak of, all the lines will be standing room only for most of the day.

As far as complicated, I cannot understand the TTC riders. Interlining is too hard for them. Now, Express and local service is too complicated too? It is a wonder they can figure out how to get around.....

An express line 1 can be RH RER. An extended Line 1 can meet RH just north of the 407. A bit of a mess north of the York sub, and one can dream of switching to the Don branch, but this is all 10-20 years away (and currently imaginary).

How would it be any better than the OL? Again, it is not close enough to the line to work well. Lets say the OL and the RH RER were the same cost to build and the same fare, neither would be much better than the other.

It's truly a shame the 407 is privately owned, but it happened. Not related to the argument, but all freeways in the GTA must be tolled.

The 407 shouldn't be tolled, but the 401 between it and the 115/35 should be. So should all the highways from the 407 to 115/35. This means the 407 would become the true bypass it was being built as. It also means that more people will leave the car at home.

Unfortunately that liberal use of elevation went out of style after WWII and is only really present in which could be called "1st Generation Subway Lines". Toronto's subway is a 2nd gen system and so elevation was not used (nor could it be given the alignment of the Yonge Subway). That said it kinda makes you wonder how different things would be if Toronto had gone through with the original 1911 proposal. Obviously Queen would have been a streetcar subway like what's in Boston but I wonder what Yonge would have been like since it was proposed as a full fledged subway and would have been a 1st generation line.

Yet we are seeing the Skytrain in Vancouver as successful. Also, the Montreal REM will be elevated. It went out of style, but is now coming back.

 

[JSF-1]

Yet we are seeing the Skytrain in Vancouver as successful. Also, the Montreal REM will be elevated. It went out of style, but is now coming back.

Yes this is due to the increasing costs of underground construction. In fact the reemergence of elevated is one of the primary attributes of what can be considered "3rd Generation Subway Lines" (alongside automation) which really start cropping up around the 1980's (although systems like BART and Washington were automated back in the 70's, that's really were the transition begins and by the 80's automation really started to become the standard). Now whether or not we are still in the 3rd generation or not really depends on if you consider the transition away from traditional large heavy rail vehicles to smaller lighter trains a big enough movement away from the current norm.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes this is due to the increasing costs of underground construction. In fact the reemergence of elevated is one of the primary attributes of what can be considered "3rd Generation Subway Lines" (alongside automation) which really start cropping up around the 1980's (although systems like BART and Washington were automated back in the 70's, that's really were the transition begins and by the 80's automation really started to become the standard). Now whether or not we are still in the 3rd generation or not really depends on if you consider the transition away from traditional large heavy rail vehicles to smaller lighter trains a big enough movement away from the current norm.

I understand why elevation is happening. In Vancouver, it is much better to have a elevated system due to the risk of earthquakes. Montreal has to also do with their desire to go with a rubber tire metro. This makes any extension more expensive because it needs to be underground.

 

[sacred]

How would it be any better than the OL? Again, it is not close enough to the line to work well. Lets say the OL and the RH RER were the same cost to build and the same fare, neither would be much better than the other.

Again, you seem to think that all Yonge passengers live exactly on Yonge? RH RER would siphon off passengers from the future terminus of the line and from Sheppard. How is ripping up all of Line 1 a good idea in any way?