Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[warrens]

Looking at the list above I wouldn't count our chickens before they've hatched.

Sure, but hey, we're already further along on literally every project I've listed than we ever were for any Transit City project when Rob Ford was elected and cancelled the whole thing.

If you want be pessimistic to leave out everything that isn't under construction today, that's fine -- the point still stands because it's still 40 new LRT stations over the next couple of years. It's going to be a huge step forward for this city to have two more east-west rapid transit routes.

I'm happy that the Ford government is making the right noises about transit, and appears to be continuing the GO RER expansion, which is way, way more than I expected when he was elected.That said, money hasn't been put down for this line yet. I truly hope something like this is designed and built soon. Truly.

The list of things one can criticize Ford for is vast, but commitment to public transit in Toronto shouldn't be one of them. Ten years ago he and his brother were stumping for Sheppard East as a subway ("subways, subways, subways!") and getting laughed at..... Twenty years from now we'll probably be happy we didn't build it as an LRT.

 

[slapped_chicken]

GO RER will happen, eventually. Providing there is good fare integration, it can be a relief for the entire subway system. The question will be when will it happen.

yep, it definitely will be a relief. My question was if they would consider adding intermediate stations on the line (like at Finch or Lawrence), in order to make it more attractive as a subway alternative to both OL and Line1, when both lines end up becoming sardine'd. It would be more sensible than running another RL to the east of OL when we can milk the Stouffville/Lakeshore East RER corridor even more than what GO currently plans.

The only reason we are getting the OL/RL is because it helps commuters in swing ridings in Scarborough, not because it's good for any of the downtown (or downtown-adjacent) neighbourhoods.

If only politicians could think beyond their term...or, you know, leave the transit planning to experts, maybe?

 

[H4F33Z]

yep, it definitely will be a relief. My question was if they would consider adding intermediate stations on the line (like at Finch or Lawrence), in order to make it more attractive as a subway alternative to both OL and Line1,

You are correct! Finch East and Lawrence East are planned stations for the Stouffville line on future GO expansion.

 

[44 North]

That drastic change is already happening right in front of us.

Last 30 years:

1. Downsview -- 1996.
2. Sheppard -- 4 new stops in 2002.
3. York University GO -- 2002.
4. TYSSE -- 5 new stops in 2017.
5. UPX -- 2 new stops in 2015. (The airport is technically not in Toronto)
6. Renforth Mississauga BRT station -- 2017. (Man, I'm being really generous here)

Next 15 years:

1. Crosstown LRT -- 23 new stops in 2022.
2. Finch West LRT -- 17 new stops in 2023.
3. Caledonia GO -- a brand new station on Eglinton, 2023.
4. Ontario Line -- 10 new stops around 2030.
5. Crosstown West -- 6 new stops around 2031.
6. Scarborough Extension -- 1 new stop (Sheppard/McCowan) presumably around 2028.... I only say one because the only "extension" is the part north of the STC. The rest replaces the Scarborough RT...
7. Yonge Subway Extension -- 1 new stop (Steeles) presumably around 2029.

Plus there's the big new bus terminal coming together at Kipling, and the near-total rebuild of Agincourt GO that is almost finished.

Put all of those pieces together and most of Transit City will actually be done. The main missing items are the Sheppard subway extension (which everyone seems committed to doing, just not before the mid-2030s) and a north/south LRT corridor on Jane.

The total: ~15 rapid transit stops built since 1990, ~40 are being delivered in the next few years, and ~20 more planned after that.

If you're adding up all the LRT stops probably should include Spadina and St Clair in the last 30 table. Perhaps even QQW and the Cherry spur since they're spec'd to LRT..

Definitely get the giddiness when a new plan comes out. But historically many of the projects promised before/after an election become delayed/deferred/drawn-out, or dropped entirely. So arguing that things will "actually be done" within 10-15years (when 10-15years ago they were also promised to be done in 10-15yrs) seems a bit lofty.

 

[Coolstar]

You are correct! Finch East and Lawrence East are planned stations for the Stouffville line on future GO expansion.

But are those stations actually going ahead? Lawrence East GO Station was removed from Metrolinx's map. Likely due to the fact the SSE now has 3 stops along it's route and Finch East GO Station was deferred last time I checked. Note Gerrard GO Station is also removed from the map.

 

[warrens]

I really hope we don't open Yonge North before the Ontario Line though. But I'm sure we will, cus the government of the moment will want votes in the 905, and inevitably someone will die at Bloor-Yonge as a result.

Yonge Extension wouldn't necessarily collect a lot of new riders that are bound for downtown.

I wish I could take you back in time 12 months and make you stand at the corner of Yonge & Steeles for an hour during the morning rush, just to observe the sheer number of buses going through that intersection. It's bonkers, man. You'd be hard-pressed to name another place in the entire GTA that sees more bus traffic.

You'd also appreciate that this intersection feels really unsafe, but in spite of that, a lot of pedestrians have to cross the intersection to make bus transfers. The rate of pedestrian injuries at this specific intersection is worryingly high. The high number of buses also agitates drivers who are trying to make right turns, but can't because they're stuck behind buses that are letting on passengers.

So yeah, higher-quality transit service is definitely needed in this part of town.

Yonge North is pencilled in for about 2030, so it's unlikely to arrive significantly before Ontario Line.

 

[Patrick98]

I really hope we don't open Yonge North before the Ontario Line though. But I'm sure we will, cus the government of the moment will want votes in the 905, and inevitably someone will die at Bloor-Yonge as a result.

Wouldn't the Eglinton line when it opens, take some of the strain off of line 2 and bloor yonge ?
I mean it's not a lot but it's got to be better than nothing right ?

 

[slapped_chicken]

But are those stations actually going ahead? Lawrence East GO Station was removed from Metrolinx's map. Likely due to the fact the SSE now has 3 stops along it's route and Finch East GO Station was deferred last time I checked. Note Gerrard GO Station is also removed from the map.

meh, the distance between Lawrence East and the hospital where they plan to put the Lawrence SSE station is about 2 km apart. Yep, ML is scared of eating Line 2's SSE ridership.. Someone call ML and inform them that Line 2 is supposed to be overcapacity in the next decade (as per TTC reports) and eating Line 2's ridership is now a good idea !

Tbh, they could add in these intermediate stations when the demand warrants it, I don't see many obstacles in building them later on. Although they'd be "nice to have" now. OL, Line 1 and 2 could all benefit from this corridor.

 

[slapped_chicken]

Wouldn't the Eglinton line when it opens, take some of the strain off of line 2 and bloor yonge ?
I mean it's not a lot but it's got to be better than nothing right ?

It would take some, sure, but during the morning crush, many downtown commuters from the east end (who aren't directly on Eglinton) will opt for Line 2 because it's faster (East side of Line 5 runs on street) and more direct to downtown (For Line 5 you'd have to go via midtown then Line 1 which is a longer journey). For the west end I expect it to take off more from intercepting with bus routes north of Eglinton, but idk.

Line 5 might actually worsen Line 1 congestion because it adds more riders to Yonge. Line 1 trains through Bloor-Yonge are gonna be even more packed beyond imagination

 

[warrens]

If you're adding up all the LRT stops probably should include Spadina and St Clair in the last 30 table. Perhaps even QQW and the Cherry spur since they're spec'd to LRT..

Reintroducing a streetcar service that previously existed isn't really "expansion", is it? So I don't count Spadina or St Clair, or Harbourfront for that matter. (The Spadina streetcar is also slower than the bus service it replaced, and St. Clair is a gong-show, so maybe they aren't good examples regardless.)

As for the Cherry Loop, I had it in my list but removed it, because then at that point I might as well start listing the other really small things that've been introduced: "New parking lot at Mimico GO! (2014)", "192 Airport Rocket! (2000)", "Walmer Road exit at Spadina! (1997)"... none of that stuff moves the needle.

 

[warrens]

But are those stations actually going ahead? Lawrence East GO Station was removed from Metrolinx's map. Likely due to the fact the SSE now has 3 stops along it's route and Finch East GO Station was deferred last time I checked. Note Gerrard GO Station is also removed from the map.

Lawrence East GO disappeared because of this: Metrolinx had internally determined that it was a bad idea, but John Tory demanded it be included anyways as it was part of his SmartTrack election prop transit map.

 

[micheal_can]

Yonge Extension wouldn't necessarily collect a lot of new riders that are bound for downtown.

I wish I could take you back in time 12 months and make you stand at the corner of Yonge & Steeles for an hour during the morning rush, just to observe the sheer number of buses going through that intersection. It's bonkers, man. You'd be hard-pressed to name another place in the entire GTA that sees more bus traffic.

You'd also appreciate that this intersection feels really unsafe, but in spite of that, a lot of pedestrians have to cross the intersection to make bus transfers. The rate of pedestrian injuries at this specific intersection is worryingly high. The high number of buses also agitates drivers who are trying to make right turns, but can't because they're stuck behind buses that are letting on passengers.

So yeah, higher-quality transit service is definitely needed in this part of town.

Yonge North is pencilled in for about 2030, so it's unlikely to arrive significantly before Ontario Line.

Most of the YNE will simply take the ridership already going to Finch and then south and have them board further north. For an example, the Steeles buses go to Finch and offload there. In the future with the extension, those buses would offload at Steeles Station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There are not *hundreds* of automated systems for you to have ridden, unless you are talking about people movers (really not a metro), or ATC subways (really not automated in the sense we are discussing).

List of semi-automatic train systems - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's also no need for the line to operate at 90's on day one and I don't think they have ever proposed that, and surely not ever all-day long at final state because if you need to hit 90s on peak you will not need to off-peak.

90 second headways are relatively easy to hit when trains are running empty. I have no doubt that the OL will be able to achieve that. Heck, even TTC Line 1 could likely hit sub-100 second frequencies when trains are running empty (turnaround times at terminal stations would be the limiting factor for Line 1; the signalling and rolling stock are capable of hitting 90 second targets).

The trick is to hit 90 second headways when you have 70,000 pesky passengers on your transit line screwing up your operations in 70,000 little ways. Every passenger the hits a passenger assist alarm will impact your headways. Every passenger that hold open doors, even if only for a few seconds, will hit your headways. Passengers struggling to board or exit crowded trains and stations will impact your headways (hint: another reason we can't just ignore the problem of train size).

When trains are running that frequent, management of headways is no longer just a question of the technical ability of the tracks and signals and switches and rolling stock. Rather, it becomes a question of managing tens of thousands of passengers to ensure that they aren't screwing up your operations. And at those headways there is very little margin for error.

Ultimately there is no guarantee of how the system will perform at peak hour, until we unleash 70,000 groggy Torontonians on the system at 8 AM and let them wreak havoc.

 

[slapped_chicken]

The Rockets aren't even very good for a TTC Subway train, they were pretty dated feeling from Day 1, especially compared to what Montreal has

If they were using standard TTC subway gauge for the line like RL, they would most likely use the same new trains they're planning to acquire for Line 2, not the rockets. At a minimum, those should be at least as good as MTL's.

The OL has been planned with 3m wide trains (essentially the same as the TTC) since day 1 according to Metrolinx

Oh, i always assumed they'd be slightly narrower, although I'm not aware by how much. This is fine to me.

How long are the proposed OL platforms vs. our other platforms?

 

[sche]

If they were using standard TTC subway gauge for the line like RL, they would most likely use the same new trains they're planning to acquire for Line 2, not the rockets. At a minimum, those should be at least as good as MTL's.

Oh, i always assumed they'd be slightly narrower, although I'm not aware by how much. This is fine to me.

How long are the proposed OL platforms vs. our other platforms?

OL trains are slightly narrower; TRs are 3.124m wide. Not that much difference though. As far as I know OL train length is still unknown at this point.