Toronto L-Tower | 204.82m | 58s | Cityzen | Daniel Libeskind

[Solaris]

What L Tower ??

Mike ... unfortunately I will have to disagree with you in ways more than one

Hi - a few thoughts on some misinformation and misplaced blame on the developer:

Wow - I can't believe it. I am infuriated! How can they just change things when we've invested our hard earned dollars, have been waiting patiently for the promise of parking to materialize, and now get slapped with a project re-design and a dilution of our unit value with an additional 60-70 unit supply coming on the market.

To be honest there really isn't anything you can do - you invested in the condo, not in the AHA cultural facility - in reality they were two seperate entities that were planned in the same structure. It's not the developers fault that the federal government didn't kick in $25 million and that the citizens of Toronto didn't raise significant funds similar to the ROM & AGO campaigns to facilitate the construction of the cultural facility. The legal documents that you signed upon your purchase were for the condo portion of the project and the condo portion only.

while it is true most purchasers bought into the L Tower not because of the AHA Cultural Centre, it would be safe for me to say this project was attractive because of its distinct architecture and building form, something that would be totally lost in the revised proposal ... I don't think many people are roaring up because of the lost of the AHA Centre, but rather the lost of the podium design~

as some have pointed out earlier, there was a 'fall-back' clause in the agreement whereby if the cultural centre fell through, Castlepoint would be able to develop that same podium as office/retail commercial ... the only reason why this staff report (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-15921.pdf) is going to City Council is because Castlepoint now wants to amend the existing Umbrella Agreement with this 'fall-back clause', so that they can create more condo suites to sell ... is that not profit taking for the price of jepordizing perfectly outstanding architecture?

Just re-reading the PDF file.....this whole thing stinks...

Castlepoint gets to build an extra 60,000 sq. ft. of residential space to sell to the public, i.e. 60 or 70 additional condos...

The city gets extortion, er, a payment of $4 million dollars...

Castlepoint pays the $1 million it costs to build the "plaza"...

The Libeskind podium is destroyed...

What an absolute travesty! I hope Studio Libeskind sues these idiots

YYZer... was that post a joke? Studio Libeskind is the developer’s client. I would suggest the opposite point of view. We have a developer that actually cares about architecture and leaving a positive mark on the City of Toronto - they hired one of the top firms in the world to bring about their vision for a new cultural facility and condo tower (a travesty would have been the initial design by another architect that was posted on UT a few years ago) - for better or for worse a new cultural facility isn't cheap and it required both donations from private citizens and public contributions from all levels of government to become a reality... that money never came and the developer is left to scramble and try to keep the project alive - hardly a bunch of "idiots", but rather a developer that is trying to do something positive for the city by bringing in international architect and attempting to build a new cultural facility.

I would think Castlepoint is Libeskind's client, whereby builder hires an architect as consultant like in most developments?

I agree that Castlepoint deserves points for bringing in a star architect to design outstanding buildings such as the originally proposed L Tower ... but all credit is lost when the builder decides to turn evil in the face of greed to rip out the podium and propose more condos once AHA fell through ... Castlepoint could have easily kept the design and use the podium as commercial, or even convert that to live-work or loft residential units

no being able to secure funding can be a reason of failure for the AHA Centre, but not a reason for Castlepoint to cheapen the building design to build more condo units

Imagine. $1 million poneyed up by the builder to build the plaza.
What a joke!
Most any upscale home in this city has more invested in the backyard.

This is such absolute BULL****!

The builder has far far more than $1 million in public benefits set aside for this project.
The section 37 agreement alone with a list of over 30 public benefits that must be paid for by the developer, plus the 1% of construction cost public art contribution - not to mention the tens millions of dollars in development charges, planning fees, permit fees, land transfer taxes and then the tens of millions of additional taxes paid to other levels of government - development is one of the most heavily taxed and regulated industries in the province - there are substantial public and economic benefits to this project, so to belittle it's contribution by reducing it to $1 million and comparing it to a backyard is beyond ridiculous...

# 1 - Section 37 Agreement was established to provide for public benefits in exchange for increased height + density, in turn which generates more revenue GFA for Castlepoint ... thus the builder is not exactly Santa Clause when they are providing these 'benefits', they are only paying because they are going to make more in return

# 2 - development charges, planning fees, permit fees, land transfer taxes and other taxes paid to other levels of government are not public benefits, it is cost of doing business in development

# 3 - even for the proposed $1 million plaza + green wall + $4 millon payment, Castlepoint is willing to provide these only in exchange for more condo units (which in turn generate omre $$ for them)

I am surprised that the developer is even allowed to tinker with the design at this point. I would think that for it to carry Libeskind's name, it would have to be as he intended or not at all. I loved the original design and I think that the "boot" portion would have looked amazing for pedestrians and traffic heading east from Union Station. Why dont they just convert the boot from commercial to loft style units... or build it as originally intended on spec of future use???

I'll echo much of the above frustration and maybe we should start a poll on whether this thing will end up as a box....

Redroom, this comment bothers me as Libeskind is a client of the developer (and was paid handsomely for his work) - in all likelihood he's going to be the one that does the redesign of the base of the tower. Most architects have done work on projects that get built and others that don't ever see the light of day - it's a professional hazard I guess.

Of course the developer is allowed to tinker with their project design (it will still have to go through necessary approvals) – otherwise the entire project would be cancelled – they are trying to save the project.

Re: spec of future use - are you crazy? How would that get done? What bank or lender in their right mind would finance this risky endeavor - even in good market conditions. The developer doesn't have the financial ability to front that cost on their own and there is very little capital available on the markets to build anything on spec, let alone the podium of the L tower. There are a number of nearly sold out condo projects by reputable Toronto developers that have been unable to or have lost financing completely - the situation in not very good out there and nobody is going to finance large commercial ventures on spec - especially from a relatively new player without a track record for this kind of development. Financing for the condo portion is already an issue.

Indeed not all designs of an architect will get built, afterall construction + sales is dependant on the economic conditions

but I rather think Redroom has a very valid point in keeping the current design and using it as commercial or converting it to loft units.

With all that said, I share the disappointment by most people as this landmark project, while still generally spectacular, it has potentially lost one of the key selling points for the citizens of Toronto.... which is no fault whatsoever of the developer - the feds didn't pony up $25 million and the fundraising efforts for the AHA centre never got very far. If anything the developer did everything they could by hiring one of the top architectural firms in the world to design a landmark building and cultural facility as well as contributing significant financial resources of their own to the project - it's the other players that didn't come to the table with money that caused this to fall through.

can not disagree with you more on this one, the proposed changes to the design and associated Umbrella Agreement is completely intiated by Caslepoint, inability to secure funding for the AHA Cultural Centre is no reason for the design to be cheaped-out ... it is just that now there is no government funding to build the podium portion of the building (which would been paid through the AHA Centre), the builder doesn't want to pay out of pocket for the cost of constructing commercial space but instead want to build condos within the 'tower footprint' ... and hey why not, generate more $$ from condo sales without building the large expensive podium (which makes L Tower so unique)

don't blame the Federal government because the developer wants to cheap out on construction while trying to 'milk' every single revenue generation oppourtunity

the revised proposal if endorsed would be complete disgrace

 

[Hipster Duck]

I might be in the minority, but I find the latest "compromise" to be far more architecturally pleasing. The podium was a mishmash that ruined the original Dickinson structure, anyway. With the new version, the Hummingbird is fully retained and the tower looks so much more vertical now.

 

[yyzer]

o.k., I guess I will have to respond to Mike in TO, somebody whose opinion I greatly respect....those of you who know me by my posts over the last few years will know that I am one of the last people to be negative over any development - I pride myself with my positive attitude over most things, but this one really got to me.

Of course, Castlepoint are to be commended for bringing a star architect to the project - absolutely awesome, and I wish more developers would do the same.

Solaris has accurately addressed all the key points - the original fallback plan was to be commercial uses in the podium, if the government monies failed to materialize....Dan Brambilla said so on several occasions, and no-one doubted his word.

But this is not a plan 'B' - it's a plan 'C'...there is no explanation why plan B wouldn't work, with the podium intact; instead, there is some vague posturing about 'public benefit' which just seems totally fake under the circumstances...the real issue is why is plan B (commercial use for the podium) being sidestepped? I don't think they are telling us the whole story.

If you sensed emotion in my original post, it's only because this, of all the ongoing projects in the city right now, would probably be the most spectacular of all........

 

[Mike in TO]

But this is not a plan 'B' - it's a plan 'C'...there is no explanation why plan B wouldn't work, with the podium intact; instead, there is some vague posturing about 'public benefit' which just seems totally fake under the circumstances...the real issue is why is plan B (commercial use for the podium) being sidestepped? I don't think they are telling us the whole story.

I agree completely - we've never been given a full story as to why exactly a commercial venture wasn't proceeded with - perhaps it was and it was determined not to be economically viable. Perhaps the proponent was overly ambitious from the start. Hopefully more information will be available in the near future.

I wonder if the word apologist would be considered as an insult on this board?

Redroom, I think it's helpful to offer a different perspective then the general theme of bashing developers thread after thread - there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding from many people with respect to the development process. There are good developers and there are bad developers - I don't like to read endless negative posts on how evil and greedy all developers are without any information as to why specific courses of action have been taken or the process that developers have to go through to bring an idea to fruition, the assumption seems to be that those courses of action were taken to screw over purchasers or the public... hopefully I can be helpful in providing an industry perspective without being called an 'apologist' - there are plenty of developments and developers I don't hold in particularly high regard... just as there are plenty who do very good work and care a great deal about their customers and the communities/buildings that they construct.

Despite my couple posts above, I agree with most on the board that the Libeskind design has been compromised and the end result isn't terribly pleasing.... if this actually is the end result.

 

[casaguy]

I don't understand why this public space is suddenly so important. It has sat as wasted space (pictured in the thumbnail above) for as long as I can remember. I can't comprehend why the tower couldn't be built as envisioned and then just fill the podium with other suites (even oversized luxury penthouse-like spaces) or commercial/office space.

 

[migtree]

As cool as the design for the base of this building was, does anyone think the "Artslab" scheme as it was proposed was actually a good idea? From what I recall, this jumbled, half baked proposal consisted of a restaurant that for some reason played multicultural TV shows, and a video game room (presumably a Sony advertising tactic).

Throw in some vague and undefined interactive arts and crafts, and a Toronto tourism station that in itself would take the wind out of any Toronto Museum proposal, and to me you have a recipe for Olympic Spirit part deux.

They even wanted to tack on a Canadian music hall of fame, which makes me yawn just typing this.

Now a shiny new planetarium at the base would be something...

 

[J-C]

Just saw this on thestar.com
http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/article/510969

This probably answers your questions

 

[lxmoss]

Martin Knelman
Entertainment columnist - thestar

Say goodbye to the idea of a $75 million Arts & Heritage Awareness complex linking the Sony Centre for the Performing Arts to Daniel Libeskind's sleek 49-storey condo skyscraper, soon to rise on the southeast corner of Sony's land at Yonge and Front Sts.

Instead, an enticing public plaza is to be built at the key intersection, on the street level next to the entrance of the historic Toronto show palace, also designed by Libeskind.

That is the revised proposal going Monday to Toronto city council's executive committee, after support needed from the federal and provincial governments ($22 million each) failed to come through.

"This new plaza will be like a large park in the heart of the city," Sony Centre CEO Dan Brambilla said yesterday. "We're still working on ideas, but we'll probably have a fountain. We want it to be animated all day long, throughout the year.

"There will be food services in the theatre lobby, open all day. This will be a great open space, like New York City's Lincoln Center plaza, with beautiful landscaping where people can stroll and meet and relax."

Other possible features include a sophisticated image projection system and a skating rink.

As a result, Libeskind's so-called L Tower, which resembled the map of Italy, will lose its toe. The tower, to be built by Castlepoint Realty Partners, will have additional condo units on the lower eight storeys that previously had been devoted to the arts and heritage centre.

The plaza will occupy a rectangle of open space more than 15 metres wide and 45 metres deep on land now used for a terrace at below-grade level, now accessible only from the theatre's lower lobby, as well as a parking area.

Libeskind's plan, originally unveiled in 2005, featured an eight-storey podium at the base of the tower (at Yonge St. and The Esplanade). That podium extended at a height of eight storeys and joined the tower to existing Sony Centre.

Brambilla's dreamed-of cultural centre would have included an interactive arts lab about the arts history of Toronto's multicultural communities, as well as a concierge service, video cabaret space and banquet facility.

Partly because of three elections in as many years, Brambilla encountered glitches several times just as a deal seemed imminent. Two weeks ago, he ran out of time.

Under the agreement between Sony and Castlepoint, there was a Plan B. If Brambilla could not raise the money by Sept. 15, the podium would still be built and the developer would be allowed to use it as retail space; then after 15 years the city would have a chance to buy the space back.

"As the deadline approached, we realized it would make more sense to have a plaza," Brambilla says.

The Sony Centre is owned by the city but run as an arm's-length agency with an independent board.

If the revised proposal wins approval from the executive committee, it will go to the full city council. It has already been endorsed by City Hall staff, and in July council indicated it would give it a favourable reception when it asked Sony to explore the possibility and return with a detailed proposal.

As part of revised deal, Castlepoint would pay an extra $3.5 million as well as the originally agreed $15 million. Construction on the tower will begin in a few months.

 

[Solaris]

notice how article gives the false perception that the alternative is the plaza proposal rather than building the podium for commerial space

"This new plaza will be like a large park in the heart of the city," Sony Centre CEO Dan Brambilla said yesterday. "We're still working on ideas, but we'll probably have a fountain. We want it to be animated all day long, throughout the year."

yeah because this normally happens in Toronto where there is no winter + snow storms

"As the deadline approached, we realized it would make more sense to have a plaza," Brambilla says.

I have yet to understand the logic

I don't understand why this public space is suddenly so important. It has sat as wasted space (pictured in the thumbnail above) for as long as I can remember. I can't comprehend why the tower couldn't be built as envisioned and then just fill the podium with other suites (even oversized luxury penthouse-like spaces) or commercial/office space.

totally good point Casaguy

 

[Benc7]

Just as well the Arts Complex part was cancelled. I agree with migtree; that idea had the smell of Olympic Spirit all over it. So, now can we re-name this building "The Legwarmer"?

 

[Archivist]

John Barber's take on the latest development, from today's Globe. I love the reference to the lower-case l tower. It's the first instance I can think of in Toronto (perhaps even worldwide) of the Decapitalization of a Building.

SONY CENTRE
Das Boot design kicked to the curb
John Barber
October 3, 2008

The music hall now known as Sony Centre has taken more than its share of knocks since it opened as the O'Keefe Centre more than 40 years ago, but none so brutal as the kick to the head designed by architect Daniel Libeskind as the basis of the centre's alleged revitalization: a giant tower in the shape of an outlandish boot crushing the handsome modernist landmark into the ground.

But now financial reality has intervened, forcing the scheme's proponents to amputate the Libeskind boot at the ankle, leaving only a stump sticking out of the rear of the old hall's roof to accommodate the condominiums considered necessary for its revival.

"It's a much simpler and more elegant solution," said Alfredo Romano of Castlepoint Realty, the developer building the addition on behalf of the city-owned music hall. "Now we're not doing an office building that really was a tough fit with the Sony Centre."

Once designated the L Tower due to its boot-like shape, the building will now take the shape of the letter I. Stressing continuity, the developer prefers to call his un-built structure "the lower-case l tower."

The redesign began months ago when it became clear that the Sony Centre was not going to receive the government funding it sought to create a new museum in the flamboyant, five-storey foot Mr. Libeskind included in his original design. In that event, the agreement between Castlepoint and the Sony Centre called for the developer to lease out the space to commercial tenants. But when the Sony board raised the prospect of scrapping the whole thing, Castlepoint agreed readily.

The revised plan, due to be debated at city hall on Monday, shows a plain, generous plaza on the centre's Yonge Street frontage, where the boot was meant to come down. The handsome limestone cladding of the centre's western elevation remains largely unmolested, as does its roof.

Mr. Romano expects little opposition from prospective buyers who have already made significant deposits for the privilege of living above the boot. "The new design actually has more sizzle for the condo dweller," he said. "Any time you can give your building some public open space right at your front door, that's pretty good."

Although the boot proposal enjoyed strong support at city hall, its demise gave Councillor Adam Vaughan - its only opponent, and son of the architect that helped design the original building - some cause to crow. "Everything I said on floor of council was true," Mr. Vaughan said yesterday. Das Boot was unbuildable.

"It was sold on spectacle, but now it's just another dumb condo," he said. "It's doing less damage, but it's still a dumb project."

Under the revised plan, proceeds from the construction of the residential tower will still be available to renovate the Sony Centre, which closed this summer for the duration of the construction.

Sony Centre CEO Dan Bambrilla was unavailable for comment yesterday.

 

[casaguy]

Instead, an enticing public plaza is to be built...

"This new plaza will be like a large park in the heart of the city," Sony Centre CEO Dan Brambilla said yesterday.

What complete BS. Look again at the tiny stamp of land we're talking about. All they'll do is flatten it out and put some more concrete planters with possibly some uplighting and voila.

 

[SpadinaBus]

Shameful

"Mr. Romano expects little opposition from prospective buyers who have already made significant deposits for the privilege of living above the boot. "The new design actually has more sizzle for the condo dweller," he said. "Any time you can give your building some public open space right at your front door, that's pretty good."

Wow, the arrogance of this developer is astounding. You call your project "L" tower, you create amazing renderings, you have the starchitect and you then sell out the project because of the building design. It was certainly not because of the layouts of the suites (which were poor in my opinion) or the finishes etc.. Adam Vaughan had it right indeed.

If Castlepoint is so confident, why don't they give everyone a chance to bail if they want and see what happens.

 

[J-C]

http://multimedia.thestar.com/acrobat/43/f2/3396ff1a4f78bf45184a9359d305.pdf

A new layout

 

[yyzer]

But when the Sony board raised the prospect of scrapping the whole thing, Castlepoint agreed readily.

So the board of the Sony Centre is the culprit, not Castlepoint....so who sits on the board?

Why do I get the feeling that this is some last minute preservationist end run?

edit: from wikipedia..."The Centre now operates as a service board of the City of Toronto with an independent Board of Directors consisting of 3 City Councillors and 9 citizen members."