Agreed. And if you really wanted a local transit connection, it would be far less expensive to extend the Eglinton LRT from Renforth to Square One. It would accomplish the same goal, with a far lower price tag.
Agreed. And if you really wanted a local transit connection, it would be far less expensive to extend the Eglinton LRT from Renforth to Square One. It would accomplish the same goal, with a far lower price tag.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Transportfan
Senior Member
So true. That's the reason NYCC is so successful and really feels like a downtown. It's built by intensification of an existing street. It would also make it easier and more logical to extend the Bloor subway, to MCC if it were located at Dundas.
As Burnhamthorpe, as a whole, doesn't feel like Missy's main crosstown street at all, yet everybody thinks it is. Even Eglinton feels more important. For example:
Burnhamthorpe:
Eglinton:
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Toffy
Active Member
Both of your examples are pretty poor choices, along with using a single photo to showcase/compare 20 KM corridors. Mississauga isn't very nice east of Dixie, no matter how far north or south you go.
The City has done a good job with the Burnhamthorpe corridor, it features a dedicated multi-use trail on the north side for almost its' entire length (Loyalist-Garnetwood Park). Over the past 3 years, they rebuilt the road from Mavis to Dixie including the multi-use trail, including full lighting for the trail, tree planting, bus lay-bys and queue jump lanes from Hurontario and Dixie. Benches have also gone up on the corners at intersections on the north side of the road from Hurontario-Duke Of York. Right turn lanes at Kariya have been eliminated to make pedestrian crossing more friendly.
The rickety sound barriers that you see in your photo are also long gone.
Burnhamthorpe is definitely the flagship crosstown corridor in the city and not just for cars, but for people too.
The City has done a good job with the Burnhamthorpe corridor, it features a dedicated multi-use trail on the north side for almost its' entire length (Loyalist-Garnetwood Park). Over the past 3 years, they rebuilt the road from Mavis to Dixie including the multi-use trail, including full lighting for the trail, tree planting, bus lay-bys and queue jump lanes from Hurontario and Dixie. Benches have also gone up on the corners at intersections on the north side of the road from Hurontario-Duke Of York. Right turn lanes at Kariya have been eliminated to make pedestrian crossing more friendly.
The rickety sound barriers that you see in your photo are also long gone.
Burnhamthorpe is definitely the flagship crosstown corridor in the city and not just for cars, but for people too.
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nfitz
Superstar
Why would it take over an hour? It's only about 13 km from Kipling to Square One. At about 33 km/hr, that would only take 24 minutes. Probably faster, as you'd really only need 7-8 stops, so it's further apart. If you look at the Yonge line from Eglinton to Finch it takes 13 minutes to go 8.2 km - that's 38 km/hr. At that speed it's only 21 minutes from Kipling to Square One. So 21 to 24 minutes. St. George to Kipling is 23 minutes. Your looking at only 44 minutes from St. George to Square One. Why do you think it would be other an hour.
An 8 km extension from Kennedy to Sheppard is fine, but a 13 km extension from Kipling to Square One is too far?
One reason is that it will take a lot less than an hour ...Which of course begs the question of why are we extending it to STC.
There's already significant traffic from Scarborough Centre to downtown. This won't stop once the transfer at Kennedy is eliminated.
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Transportfan
Senior Member
I was using those pictures to show the degree of development along the two streets, not to show the number of car lanes--although truth be told, the four, (as opposed to six on Eglinton or Dundas) lanes shows that the road isn't that important commercially. Tree-lined trails are nice and all, but a street running through green swathes for most of it's length through a city (including its downtown via that very un-urban linear park) is hardly the hallmark of a major commercial flagship artery; buildings lining it are. Burnhamthorpe is the lamest example of a so-called flagship street and has the least potential for densification.
The fact is people think Burnhamthorpe is Mississauga's east-west main drag because it has the busiest bus route (only because it's the fastest way, not because there's any trip generators along it) between SQ1 and the subway, and because
MCC runs through it. But when you really think about it, it isn't really.
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Toffy
Active Member
You completely missed my first point, you're using two very poor images as your basis to compare the two very long and diverse corridors.
Burnhamthorpe, like Dundas and Eglinton both have 4 lane and 6 lane portions. In fact, the city decided against widening the Hurontario-Dixie portion during the EA a few years ago to instead make the corridor more active transportation friendly.
As for having little potential for intensification, it has great potential from Grand Park to Central Parkway. Eglinton on the other hand, only has a bit of potential immediately around Hurontario and opposite of Erin Mills Town Center, but that's really it.
As for the 26, the vast majority of the ridership is between Dixie and the CCT, the subway is not a very big trip generator outside of rush hour.
Burnhamthorpe, like Dundas and Eglinton both have 4 lane and 6 lane portions. In fact, the city decided against widening the Hurontario-Dixie portion during the EA a few years ago to instead make the corridor more active transportation friendly.
As for having little potential for intensification, it has great potential from Grand Park to Central Parkway. Eglinton on the other hand, only has a bit of potential immediately around Hurontario and opposite of Erin Mills Town Center, but that's really it.
As for the 26, the vast majority of the ridership is between Dixie and the CCT, the subway is not a very big trip generator outside of rush hour.
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Tuscani01
Senior Member
Because point A to B was Union to Square One, not St. George to Square One. Assuming most people will transfer to/from Yonge, and that the trip from Yonge-Bloor to Kipling is currently 27 minutes (assuming conditions are perfect and there are no delays), it's safe to assume an hour of travel time for most.
Where did I say an 8km extension to Scarborough was fine?
howl
Active Member
I'm not sure you can extend the subway indefinitely. If it's already difficult to get a seat at Islington in the morning think of what it will be like if there are ten more stops to the west rather than just one.
nfitz
Superstar
Why in the future would most people transfer to Yonge? They don't now. An awful lot of people getting on at Kipling who haven't gotten off before St. George appear to be UT students from the look of them. Some seem to be Ryerson, who'd find Union Station too far south.
wopchop
Building Toronto
People have this weird idea in their minds that every single person is heading to Union.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
SmartTrack if built would also be providing an early transfer before St. George.
nfitz
Superstar
These people need to spend a morning riding on the BD line, and watch how many people get off between Kipling/Kennedy and Yonge/St. George. And how many get on when travelling outbound back to Kipling/Kennedy!
Or better yet, just look at Exhibit 4-3 of the 2012 TTC Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study.
In the 2001 case, there are 22,630 riders in the peak hour arriving at Yonge from east (Sherbourne). Only 6,360 (about 29%) change at Yonge to go south on the Yonge line. Surprisingly, there are 11,060 riders arriving from the west (Bay), and 4,330 (39%) change at Yonge to go south on the Yonge line (I'd have thought many would have changed at St. George instead).
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Tuscani01
Senior Member
I have done that, several times. I live along the Bloor line. The trains are packed going towards St. George and Yonge in the AM, and nearly empty out at both transfer points.
So out of 11,000 riders coming from the west, 6500 transfer either North bound or South bound at Yonge (60% of people coming from the West), and 3800 continue going Eastbound. So 93% of the passengers coming from the West end continue their trip onto Yonge or further East.
I'd be interested to see the numbers for St. George station to compare the travel patterns with Bloor-Yonge.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Except that all the changes you've listed makes the route "nice", but it doesn't change the urban fabric of along the route. Certainly few would use Burnhamthrope as the primary E-W route for their travels (that honour goes to the 403), and at the end of the day, isn't usage what matters? Urbanistically, I think Lakeshore might have greater potential.
AoD