Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Dan416]

I agree.. If we're building an underground transit line then it seems short sighted to make it as a streetcar.

Although I'm just happy to see some semblance of a subway plan coming to fruition.

It basically IS a subway since it's virtually all underground, as far as I can tell from the press release except for Black Creek Drive and the SRT alignment.

The different is that it's low-floor and LRVs cost more than subway trains. But we save because the stations don't suffer from the overbuilding present in our subway stations.

 

[gweed123]

It's wider on the whole. Eglinton will be 26 stops over 25km, Bloor is 31 over 26km.

A lot of that wider stop spacing though comes from the section between Vic Park and Kennedy, those stops are all really far apart. My point was that they're generally about equal, and they're certainly not Yonge's Eglinton to Finch spacing.

 

[doady]

It basically IS a subway since it's virtually all underground, as far as I can tell from the press release except for Black Creek Drive and the SRT alignment.

The TTC's subway system is defined by its grade-separated crossings and its fare-paid zones, not by being underground. After all, the current system already has several above ground sections.

Any LRT, even if it is entirely underground, cannot be considered subway by Toronto standards.

Personally, I did not like original Eglinton LRT because of it extensive underground section, and I like it even less now.The only merit of the Eglinton LRT is that it removes the transfer at Kennedy. But if doesn't have fare-paid zones like the rest of the subway system, I think it is just a waste of money. Building a huge transit line underground that does not fit in with the existing system makes no sense to me.

Toronto went from one folly (Transit City) to another (completely underground LRTs). Sad.

 

[Eug]

The TTC's subway system is defined by its grade-separated crossings and its fare-paid zones, not by being underground. After all, the current system already has several above ground sections.

Any LRT, even if it is entirely underground, cannot be considered subway by Toronto standards.

That's just semantics. To everyone else in Toronto who isn't a transit geek, the new line along the Eglinton corridor is a subway...

Personally, I did not like original Eglinton LRT because of it extensive underground section, and I like it even less now.The only merit of the Eglinton LRT is that it removes the transfer at Kennedy. But if doesn't have fare-paid zones like the rest of the subway system, I think it is just a waste of money. Building a huge transit line underground that does not fit in with the existing system makes no sense to me.

Meanwhile those on/near the line who need public transit will be overjoyed to have close subway access.

 

[doady]

That's just semantics. To everyone else who isn't a transit geek, it's a subway.

Different fare policies, different functions is just sematics?

Anyone who has actually used the TTC subway would have known that the TTC is not all underground. Therefore, semantics is saying that subway is defined by being underground.

A system is a system because of shared elements, and for the TTC subway, it's fare policy and the grade separation. It isn't transit-geekery, it's branding and function.

Meanwhile those on/near the line who need public transit will be overjoyed to have close subway access.

And all those people living around Rosedale and Davisville stations and along Allen Rd are still clamouring for close subway access.

 

[Eug]

Different fare policies, different functions is just sematics?

Anyone who has actually used the TTC subway would have known that the TTC is not all underground.

Therefore, semantics is saying that subway is defined by being underground.

A system is a system because of shared elements, and for the TTC subway, it's fare policy and the grade separation. It isn't transit-geekery, it's branding and function.

And all of the Eglinton line is grade separated. So what's your point then? Just that the fare policy is different?

People will... and already do... consider it subway. So far I haven't come across a single person who views this as anything other than subway. In fact, even the anti-Ford reporters just accept it as subway. And if it's a subway with a different fare policy then it's just a subway with a different fare policy.

And all those people living around Rosedale and Davisville stations and along Allen Rd are still clamouring for close subway access.

And that means what exactly? People there still call it a subway, BTW. I have friends and colleagues who live in the Rosedale and Davisville areas, and furthermore, I used to take that line all the time until I moved out to Scarborough.

 

[kEiThZ]

Toronto went from one folly (Transit City) to another (completely underground LRTs). Sad.

Extremism begets extremism.

Personally, I wouldn't have minded the original Eglinton LRT if they had sent the Bloor-Danforth line to STC. This plan is a distant second best.

 

[Eug]

So, now that Presto is king, both for the Eglinton line and at Kennedy, in the east I wonder what it would take to eventually re-purpose GO as an express and frequent downtown relief line from Kennedy.

ie. Keep the regular GO trains out to the 905, but add additional frequent trains that only go back and forth from Union to Kennedy.

 

[doady]

And all of the Eglinton line is grade separated. So what's your point then? Just that the fare policy is different?

People will... and already do... consider it subway. So far I haven't come across a single person who views this as anything other than subway. In fact, even the anti-Ford reporters just accept it as subway. And if it's a subway with a different fare policy then it's just a subway with a different fare policy.

The fare policy is what defines the subway system. The Eglinton LRT will have totally different boarding policy, totally different fare payment, totally different bus and streetcar transfers. Anyone who thinks that the fare-paid zones are not a big deal for the TTC subway is totally ignorant of how the TTC subway works, but also how the bus and streetcar systems work, and how the TTC as a whole works, and is therefore not qualified to discuss transit issues in Toronto. Hell, even the non transit users in Toronto must have noticed the numerous signs warning people of heavy fines for walking into bus terminals from the street at the subway stations.

And that means what exactly? People there still call it a subway, BTW. I have friends and colleagues who live in the Rosedale and Davisville areas, and furthermore, I used to take that line all the time until I moved out to Scarborough.

Of course people there still call it subway, because being underground doesn't have much to do with why it is called the subway.

 

[Eug]

The fare policy is what defines the subway system. The Eglinton LRT will have totally different boarding policy, totally different fare payment, totally different bus and streetcar transfers. Anyone who thinks that the fare-paid zones are not a big deal for the TTC subway is totally ignorant of how the TTC subway works, but also how the bus and streetcar systems work, and how the TTC as a whole works, and is therefore not qualified to discuss transit issues in Toronto. Hell, even the non transit users in Toronto must have noticed the numerous signs warning people of heavy fines for walking into bus terminals from the street at the subway stations.

I guess we should call the Queen streetcar a subway then.

 

[Rainforest]

The fare policy is what defines the subway system. The Eglinton LRT will have totally different boarding policy, totally different fare payment, totally different bus and streetcar transfers. Anyone who thinks that the fare-paid zones are not a big deal for the TTC subway is totally ignorant of how the TTC subway works, but also how the bus and streetcar systems work, and how the TTC as a whole works, and is therefore not qualified to discuss transit issues in Toronto. Hell, even the non transit users in Toronto must have noticed the numerous signs warning people of heavy fines for walking into bus terminals from the street at the subway stations.

1) Let's not forget that many older subway stations, including all YUS stations south of Bloor, have no fare-paid connections to surface routes.

2) We don't even know at this point how the Eglinton - STC line, if built according to the new plan, will handle fares. There was an idea to use POP on all Transit City routes, but with Eglinton going fully grade-separate, they might change that and install automatic entrances at all stations. STC stations are in the fare-paid zone already.

 

[Dan416]

I see no reason why an almost fully underground line like Eglinton wouldn't have fare paid areas like the subway.

 

[nfitz]

I see no reason why an almost fully underground line like Eglinton wouldn't have fare paid areas like the subway.

Because it's not in the design? At least not with any infrastructure.

They could always do the fare paid areas like they do on the Canada Line in Vancouver. They simply paint a line on the floor, and if you cross it without proof of payment, you can be ticketed.

 

[CDL.TO]

They could always do the fare paid areas like they do on the Canada Line in Vancouver. They simply paint a line on the floor, and if you cross it without proof of payment, you can be ticketed.

Interestingly, Vancouver has a project underway to add fare barriers to all their stations.

 

[Darwinkgo]

^ Yeah keep it simple. With ATC only really need some fare inspectors to keep the line working (for front side staff). The fare evasion rates are very low in Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver - there is no reason to believe the case would be any different in Toronto.

Interestingly, Vancouver has a project underway to add fare barriers to all their stations.

Edmonton used to have them but took them out to save money. Vancouver is looking at adding them (it is still unfunded I believe) despite low evasion rates due to a perceived public safety issue.