Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[jmi22]

Hi all, with all the bad news recently thought I would bring up some pictures of what will hopefully open this year. I haven't seen these images before so wanted to share for those who have not seen them either.

These are picture from Caledonia, Mount Pleasant, and Cedarvale Stations.

The photos are great and the stations themselves are really quite nice brand spanking new. However, and I'm far from the first person to point this out, but these stations are going to age horriblyyyyy. The all white look of the 2010's can maybe be upkept in the kitchen of a Rosedale home, but the passage of tens of thousands of people thru essentially a blank canvas for every spill, scratch and act of vandalism will take its toll rapidly.

Quite a microcosm of the short sighted adherence to the biggest trend of the moment that seems to have dominated every aspect of this projects design.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

The photos are great and the stations themselves are really quite nice brand spanking new. However, and I'm far from the first person to point this out, but these stations are going to age horriblyyyyy. The all white look of the 2010's can maybe be upkept in the kitchen of a Rosedale home, but the passage of tens of thousands of people thru essentially a blank canvas for every spill, scratch and act of vandalism will take its toll rapidly.

Quite a microcosm of the short sighted adherence to the biggest trend of the moment that seems to have dominated every aspect of this projects design.

Hospitals tend to have blank white finishes and with proper janitorial care they don’t age that bad.

But yes I would have preferred some kind of interior cladding on all the walls here.

 

[nfitz]

Hospitals tend to have blank white finishes and with proper janitorial care they don’t age that bad.

Hospital walls are designed to be frequently painted.

I'm not sure what the finish here is.

 

[jmi22]

Hospitals tend to have blank white finishes and with proper janitorial care they don’t age that bad.

But yes I would have preferred some kind of interior cladding on all the walls here.

True, but the way in which these spaces are used and regulated are very different. Cladding, specifically (subway) tile has been used for a long time and not on accident, it just works well for the context. But of course we had to re-invent the wheel.

 

[cplchanb]

True, but the way in which these spaces are used and regulated are very different. Cladding, specifically (subway) tile has been used for a long time and not on accident, it just works well for the context. But of course we had to re-invent the wheel.

Well that's what you get when you let naive design architects with their utopian dreamworlds take hold of the project instead of utilizing construction architects who understand the real world

 

[T3G]

Well that's what you get when you let naive design architects with their utopian dreamworlds take hold of the project instead of utilizing construction architects who understand the real world

Sorry, who is in charge of the project? If Metrolinx didn't want "utopian dreamworld" design, they could've rejected it and gone with another. This is entirely on them. We aren't living in the Soviet Union, where transit operators were told to take what was available and that was it.

 

[northyorker1]

Sorry, who is in charge of the project? If Metrolinx didn't want "utopian dreamworld" design, they could've rejected it and gone with another. This is entirely on them. We aren't living in the Soviet Union, where transit operators were told to take what was available and that was it.

To set the record straight, transit stations in the Soviet Union were some of the most beautiful in the world (still are, actually).

 

[T3G]

To set the record straight, transit stations in the Soviet Union were some of the most beautiful in the world (still are, actually).

Perhaps they were, but the general rule was exactly as I said, if you wanted something different than what was available then you were SOL.

The example I was going for was the Tatra T3, which is the most numerous tram car ever built, with over 14000 pieces built from 1960-1989. It also happens that it underwent no technological innovation in that time period, despite many transit agencies in the Eastern Bloc wanting something that was more energy efficient rather than the vehicle's former control system, based off the PCC design. If they wanted more energy efficient equipment, they would have to procure it and install it themselves, sometimes in brand new tram cars fresh from the factory.

It sounds to me like this is what "cplchanb" is insinuating is the case, that Metrolinx appear to have had no recourse against architects with pie in the sky fantasies. Which is, of course, bunk. Don't blame the architects, blame Metrolinx for not being able to properly spec their project.

 

[cplchanb]

Perhaps they were, but the general rule was exactly as I said, if you wanted something different than what was available then you were SOL.

The example I was going for was the Tatra T3, which is the most numerous tram car ever built, with over 14000 pieces built from 1960-1989. It also happens that it underwent no technological innovation in that time period, despite many transit agencies in the Eastern Bloc wanting something that was more energy efficient rather than the vehicle's former control system, based off the PCC design. If they wanted more energy efficient equipment, they would have to procure it and install it themselves, sometimes in brand new tram cars fresh from the factory.

It sounds to me like this is what "cplchanb" is insinuating is the case, that Metrolinx appear to have had no recourse against architects with pie in the sky fantasies. Which is, of course, bunk. Don't blame the architects, blame Metrolinx for not being able to properly spec their project.

well this was MLs first big project and they were very naive to the complexities of it including decision making. Its the architects job to showcase and sell with as much grandeur as possible to fit the constraints of the project. Ive worked with many developers whove fallen into that trap with these architects and interior designers. while it is the job of ML to spec the right stuff the onus is also on the consultants to be able to provide something that is reasonable and practical that is easy to construct and maintain.

 

[crs1026]

Wouldn't be the first time that a transit agency was encouraged to design eyecatching architecture that exceeeded actual need (cough TYSSE cough)

ML has always had an ivory tower faction that yearned for "world class" solutions and pursued International Design Competitions as opposed to settling for competent, functional, utilitarian, economical design.

PS - Vitrolite stations only really became popular after they became 'retro'. Until then, Line 1 was criticised as "bathroom architecture". I'm not sure the Brutalist styling of the SRT was all that timeless, either. It will be interesting to see if the Crosstown designs hold up, or not.

- Paul

 

[T3G]

well this was MLs first big project and they were very naive to the complexities of it including decision making. Its the architects job to showcase and sell with as much grandeur as possible to fit the constraints of the project. Ive worked with many developers whove fallen into that trap with these architects and interior designers. while it is the job of ML to spec the right stuff the onus is also on the consultants to be able to provide something that is reasonable and practical that is easy to construct and maintain.

The architect's job isn't to know what is and isn't within Metrolinx's abilities to maintain properly. How can they? They're architects, they're not running a transit agency. This is not to defend architects generally as I find many modern architects seem to lack any sense of aesthetic value and our public realm suffers for it, but some blame placed at the feet of the people whose job it is to manage every aspect of the project would be welcome.

If ML were naive to the complexities of the project, then surely you can work up some forgiveness in your heart for the general way they've bungled the project, no?

 

[crs1026]

The architect's job isn't to know what is and isn't within Metrolinx's abilities to maintain properly. How can they? They're architects, they're not running a transit agency. This is not to defend architects generally as I find many modern architects seem to lack any sense of aesthetic value and our public realm suffers for it, but some blame placed at the feet of the people whose job it is to manage every aspect of the project would be welcome.

If ML were naive to the complexities of the project, then surely you can work up some forgiveness in your heart for the general way they've bungled the project, no?

I don't have a position on the architecture per se, but there are ample examples where recent stations have been designed without asking "the person with the mop" what they think. Pillars placed so it's impossible to sweep out the corner recesses, pot lights over deep voids that will be challenging to change bulbs without scaffolding, that kind of thing. Those aspects have far more impact on how the stations look after 20 years than the massing, materials, colours, etc.

The biggest detriment on Lines 1 and 2 imho, is the amount of retrofitting especially conduit. I don't think we can blame the 1960s designer for failing to predict the need for wifi, cellular, or radio cables along the platforms.... or today's standards for wayfinding and advertising. The stations have certainly lost their clean lines.

I will say, the Crosstown stations do appear to give much more consideration to natural light than previous projects. That has to be a step forward. I do hope that people get sick of white and grey for walls, and the current trend for rigid perpendiculars and certain wood finishes. But that's just my tastes, and I have never taken a design or architecture course in my life.

- Paul