Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Perhaps....but the suggestion that he never gets it is wrong....not only is there one clear example where he did "win" with his patient-bullying....I can't think of one example where he has lost yet. There are others pending but where has there been a case where it is "final" that he did not get what he whined for? That, combined with the local desire of people to get the best and not be "2nd class", is what encourages him to continue.

Well, he wanted to bury everything - and he didn't get either the buried Sheppard (in his original transportation "plan", at the expense of the entire EC) or Eglinton per his deal with Metrolinx, so in a very real sense he already lost.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

Well, he wanted to bury everything - and he didn't get either the buried Sheppard (in his original transportation "plan", at the expense of the entire EC) or Eglinton per his deal with Metrolinx, so in a very real sense he already lost.

AoD

I am sure he would tell you....and anyone (ie voters) that would listen to him that both of those are still out there as projects to convert to subways. Sheppard was the first one he mentioned (along with Finch) after he "won" the RT battle as the next one he was gonna make sure was a subway and, as we are discussing, he is still working on burying the rest of EC. He may not understand transit, but he understands voters base instincts and telling each group in succession that they "deserve" buried transit is his approach.

 

[ehlow]

I am sure he would tell you....and anyone (ie voters) that would listen to him that both of those are still out there as projects to convert to subways. Sheppard was the first one he mentioned (along with Finch) after he "won" the RT battle as the next one he was gonna make sure was a subway and, as we are discussing, he is still working on burying the rest of EC. He may not understand transit, but he understands voters base instincts and telling each group in succession that they "deserve" buried transit is his approach.

Even if Rob Ford wins and has the support of city council (which is obviously a HUGE if), Metrolinx may simply say "it's too late to change plans at this point". And of course they have majority now so they can easily say "the voters voted for the current plan so we're not changing it".

They could also reject changing the Scarborough line back to LRT if Olivia Chow or Soknacki wins and has support of council, or any other changes.

 

[TOareaFan]

Even if Rob Ford wins and has the support of city council (which is obviously a HUGE if), Metrolinx may simply say "it's too late to change plans at this point". And of course they have majority now so they can easily say "the voters voted for the current plan so we're not changing it".

They could also reject changing the Scarborough line back to LRT if Olivia Chow or Soknacki wins and has support of council, or any other changes.

They could, yes, but their record is not great on that and they have already said that while the plans are what they are they will work with local councils.

From the Star on June 27

It is the plan that is in place, but as with all of these things, we need to work in co-operation with all the municipalities,” she said, adding “there is no point in pretending that there doesn’t have to be a good working relationship with the municipalities.”

 

[ehlow]

They could, yes, but their record is not great on that and they have already said that while the plans are what they are they will work with local councils.

From the Star on June 27

Yeah, we'll see if all those things happen. The political circumstances are different (majority at the beginning of their term).

 

[TOareaFan]

Yeah, we'll see if all those things happen. The political circumstances are different (majority at the beginning of their term).

That quote came from an article post election that included the self description of "Flexing her majority mandate muscles,"...that is the extent of her flexing her muscles.

 

[M II A II R II K]

FORD should FOAD.

Anyway the mayor that truly delivered subways was Miller, that are being tunneled now.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That quote came from an article post election that included the self description of "Flexing her majority mandate muscles,"...that is the extent of her flexing her muscles.

She already flexed it - there is pretty much no acknowledgement of RoFo's ask other than - you pay for it. Also note that in the SRT/subway episode, the province refused to go beyond their original funding envelop - the gap was closed by the city tax hike and the Federal contribution. Not to mention the political calculus does not favour infinite pandering.

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Problem with that analysis is that it is not entirely true. There was an LRT planned to replace the Scarborough RT....he managed to get that replaced with a BD subway extension that more than doubled the cost.

So he has received the encouragement that if you bully for subways, and are patient in your bullying, then you eventually get what you want.

That analysis ignored the fact that he only got what he wanted because of a) a minority provincial government and b) a federal government willing to play ball. I highly doubt that he can repeat the performance given a) no longer applies and b) will have trouble doing more than a one off (esp. since Flaherty is now out of the picture).

AoD

Perhaps....but the suggestion that he never gets it is wrong....not only is there one clear example where he did "win" with his patient-bullying....I can't think of one example where he has lost yet. There are others pending but where has there been a case where it is "final" that he did not get what he whined for? That, combined with the local desire of people to get the best and not be "2nd class", is what encourages him to continue.

Well, he wanted to bury everything - and he didn't get either the buried Sheppard (in his original transportation "plan", at the expense of the entire EC) or Eglinton per his deal with Metrolinx, so in a very real sense he already lost.

AoD

I am sure he would tell you....and anyone (ie voters) that would listen to him that both of those are still out there as projects to convert to subways. Sheppard was the first one he mentioned (along with Finch) after he "won" the RT battle as the next one he was gonna make sure was a subway and, as we are discussing, he is still working on burying the rest of EC. He may not understand transit, but he understands voters base instincts and telling each group in succession that they "deserve" buried transit is his approach.

She already flexed it - there is pretty much no acknowledgement of RoFo's ask other than - you pay for it. Also note that in the SRT/subway episode, the province refused to go beyond their original funding envelop - the gap was closed by the city tax hike and the Federal contribution. Not to mention the political calculus does not favour infinite pandering.

AoD

I agree with TOareafan. What will the excuse be if he wins and get his powers back? The mayor sets the agenda. Of course the Eglinton Crosstown will be buried in that case. The Liberals called themselves subway champions, and they want to keep the their seats in Scarborough.

 

[ehlow]

Random thought:

Based on my understanding, 2-car trains on Eglinton should be enough capacity for decades. Each car 30 meters length.

But in the future, when they run 3-car trains, couldn't they run a 90 meter (equivalent to 3 car length) articulated all the way through vehicle similar to the new subway TR vehicles?

The each car has two cabs on either end to be bi-directional from what I understand.

With 3-car train, there would be 4 cabs not used. If it was one 90 meter vehicle where you can walk end to end like the new subway vehicles, it could use the space that those 4 cabs take up for passengers right?

 

[ehlow]

I agree with TOareafan. What will the excuse be if he wins and get his powers back? The mayor sets the agenda. Of course the Eglinton Crosstown will be buried in that case. The Liberals called themselves subway champions, and they want to keep the their seats in Scarborough.

You could say that it's too far along, too late to make changes. They are already doing design meetings with the bidders for the major contract that includes the surface part this year, although that contract doesn't become finalized till Spring 2015.

Anyways it's a huge "if", this is very very hypothetical. Clearly Ford didn't get his way during his first term as mayor. If he did, Eglinton would not be under construction, and the Sheppard east subway extension would be going ahead..

He also implied he would get rid of streetcars during his 1st term and they are still running.

So there are multiple hypotheticals that need to happen to even get to this scenario.

Source:
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=9038

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I agree with TOareafan. What will the excuse be if he wins and get his powers back? The mayor sets the agenda. Of course the Eglinton Crosstown will be buried in that case. The Liberals called themselves subway champions, and they want to keep the their seats in Scarborough.

Even in the unlikely event he won the race, he would not have an overwhelming mandate of any kind (let's forget for a moment his chances of getting a truly cooperative council is zilch) - and he who pays for the project sets the agenda - even if one forgets for a moment that EC is a province-only project. What's he going to do? Raise taxes again for a section that benefits Scarborough only? Good luck getting that through council.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

Even in the unlikely event he won the race, he would not have an overwhelming mandate of any kind (let's forget for a moment his chances of getting a truly cooperative council is zilch) - and he who pays for the project sets the agenda - even if one forgets for a moment that EC is a province-only project. What's he going to do? Raise taxes again for a section that benefits Scarborough only? Good luck getting that through council.

AoD

We will have to wait and see....but he didn't really have much council support when he hijacked the RT replacement to subway land and prior to him agreeing to cough up city funds wasn't that proposed LRT all provincial money too?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Random thought:

Based on my understanding, 2-car trains on Eglinton should be enough capacity for decades. Each car 30 meters length.

But in the future, when they run 3-car trains, couldn't they run a 90 meter (equivalent to 3 car length) articulated all the way through vehicle similar to the new subway TR vehicles?

The each car has two cabs on either end to be bi-directional from what I understand.

With 3-car train, there would be 4 cabs not used. If it was one 90 meter vehicle where you can walk end to end like the new subway vehicles, it could use the space that those 4 cabs take up for passengers right?

Yes, when the need arises I am sure they can have vehicles built to the requirements of the line.

AoD

 

[smallspy]

Random thought:

Based on my understanding, 2-car trains on Eglinton should be enough capacity for decades. Each car 30 meters length.

But in the future, when they run 3-car trains, couldn't they run a 90 meter (equivalent to 3 car length) articulated all the way through vehicle similar to the new subway TR vehicles?

The each car has two cabs on either end to be bi-directional from what I understand.

With 3-car train, there would be 4 cabs not used. If it was one 90 meter vehicle where you can walk end to end like the new subway vehicles, it could use the space that those 4 cabs take up for passengers right?

Of course they could.

But they would then be restricted to running 90 meter vehicles all the time - including times when they aren't needed. It also makes maintenance a pain, as you would then have to pull 1 90 metre vehicle out of service, rather than one-third of a 90 metre vehicle.

And then there's the issue that you now have a vehicle that can't be used on any other lines - and that was kind of a major point of the LRT network.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.