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The Urban Jungle
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Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

WislaHD said:
Oh wow the Second Cup is going?

My first 'field trip' was going across the street to there in junior kindergarten. :p
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I go there often, but we all have to make sacrifices :). 2nd cup vs rapid transit station, I'm willing to make the trade! Churrasco's must stay though!

By the way, that school across the street on the SW side is designed by Teeple, one of my favourite Toronto architects. Unfortunately, I can't say I like that building very much.
 
^ Joking right? Eglinton isn't even rezoned for significant density yet. Sheppard was and all they did there was standalone stations. Bayview and Bessarion should have had towers integrated into the stations from the beginning.
 
picard102 said:
Have they looked into getting a developer on board for these stations to add density above them?
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I don't think there's a plan for directly above the stations, but there is a plan called Eglinton Connects being developed for adding density around stations which now have big-box suburban areas around them, like the Leaside & Golden Mile areas, as well as Bayview, Dufferin, Don Mills.

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=0f8e86664ea71410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD
http://www1.toronto.ca/staticfiles/...n_design/files/pdf/egconnects_focus_may13.pdf

*edit: actually it does show development opportunities directly above some of the stations
 
ehlow said:
I don't think there's a plan for directly above the stations, but there is a plan called Eglinton Connects being developed for adding density around stations which now have big-box suburban areas around them, like the Leaside & Golden Mile areas, as well as Bayview, Dufferin, Don Mills.

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=0f8e86664ea71410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD
http://www1.toronto.ca/staticfiles/...n_design/files/pdf/egconnects_focus_may13.pdf

*edit: actually it does show development opportunities directly above some of the stations
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I know nothing is as easy as it seems from the peanut gallery... but this to me is fascinating. We have a HUGE transit project being constructed on a major street and we're building stand alone stations. The TTC is expropriating businesses to construct stand alone TTC entrances. Is it perhaps illegal for the TTC to expropriate businesses and resell to developers? Is it just too complex? How are we not giving station land to developers having them build condos above stations at the same time as we're building stations? I'm sure there's an answer here - but it seems nutballs
 
pw20 said:
I know nothing is as easy as it seems from the peanut gallery... but this to me is fascinating. We have a HUGE transit project being constructed on a major street and we're building stand alone stations. The TTC is expropriating businesses to construct stand alone TTC entrances. Is it perhaps illegal for the TTC to expropriate businesses and resell to developers? Is it just too complex? How are we not giving station land to developers having them build condos above stations at the same time as we're building stations? I'm sure there's an answer here - but it seems nutballs
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It's been mentioned a few times that the TTC should rent (not sell) the space above/around stations for extra revenue.
 
ehlow said:
The only station entrance I could think of in Toronto that's like that is Spadina station:
800px-Spadina_TTC_85_Spadina_Road.JPG
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Does anybody know if the house above the station is occupied?
 
pw20 said:
I know nothing is as easy as it seems from the peanut gallery... but this to me is fascinating. We have a HUGE transit project being constructed on a major street and we're building stand alone stations. The TTC is expropriating businesses to construct stand alone TTC entrances. Is it perhaps illegal for the TTC to expropriate businesses and resell to developers? Is it just too complex? How are we not giving station land to developers having them build condos above stations at the same time as we're building stations? I'm sure there's an answer here - but it seems nutballs
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Did Rob Ford not campaign that private developers be sought to pay for the cost of the subway. Of course they would not pay for the entire line, but I imagine that the TTC and Councillors did not want Ford to appear even partially correct so they did not explore these options. Better to pay a few hundred million more and make Ford appear to be a 100% fool, rather than save the money and make Ford appear right. (although combined with his other behaviour, he would still appear over 90% foolish).
 
^ Non-sense. Ford met with a bunch of the developers and they basically laughed him out of the room. $1 billion for even a short subway extension is not going to be funded by development fees alone.
 
Edward Skira said:
^ Non-sense. Ford met with a bunch of the developers and they basically laughed him out of the room. $1 billion for even a short subway extension is not going to be funded by development fees alone.
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Are you agreeing with me or not - your two sentences seem to contradict each other.

We both agree that raising $1B for a short Sheppard extension is not possible.

I think some money could be raised for a line as long as Eglinton - maybe in the $100 to $200M range.

Maybe you are saying the amount would be inconsequential and there is no merit to building developments above stations?
 
I'm commenting on your thought that city councillors said no to make Ford look foolish. A ridiculous notion. He said he'd get developers to fund the entire line with no public funding. The meeting with the developers quickly put an end to that idea.

Yes they could raise some money. I certainly have no problem with it. But even your $100-$200 million is high unless you really allow significant development. Say the development fee, for argument's purpose, is 10% (which is high) of development cost. You'd need $1-2 billion dollars worth of projects to generate those amounts. That's a lot of development. Not likely to happen along Eglinton or even a Sheppard extension.
 
There are plenty of opportunities for development around the stations in some areas, and many under construction or proposed (although mostly near Yonge). However even if there is no further development, this will not be an under-used line like Sheppard.
 
rbt said:
Nobody, including councillors who push the idea, has come up with a reason a developer would pay extra to do so.
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Why would a developer help build the TIFF lightbox? Help reconstruct North Toronto?

I'm not saying a developer or development fees would pay for an entire line. But are you telling me that if the city sold land to a developer for $1 with the intention that during their construction of a condo building they'd partially pay for a subway station? We have section 37 fees which go towards public art... it's not completely out of the question.

Again - I realize that there are complications, and it's not as easy as snap your fingers and Transit Oriented Development will appear completely integrated with a station, however, i the Eglinton cross-town where SEVERAL buildings are being expropriated for construction of stations it seems remarkably foolish to not defray the cost partially by partnering with developments.
 
pw20 said:
Why would a developer help build the TIFF lightbox?
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The answer here is they paid for a chunk of the land that TIFF owned, and construction was not encumbered in anyway.

Building over a subway station costs extra. If they have the choice to build 50m away or directly overtop, 50m away is by default the cheaper option.

They're not going to pay extra in construction costs + extra to the city to build over a subway station without some significant benefit; such as being able to build 1000 units instead of 500 units due to zoning differences. The city can and does sell excess density frequently for a price (section 37 funds); subways don't need to be involved for that.

The DRL through downtown might be different as the city might find commercial partners willing to pay $50M ($20M to the city, $30M to the construction contractor) in exchange for $2/sqft from their customers and $10/sqft at PATH level; but condos don't get a premium from end-buyers for subway connected versus subway adjacent. For a station like Leslie or Sheppard, there is absolutely zero benefit to the developer.


Eglinton Station has had a plan for development over it well before Eglinton LRT was proposed. TTC even had the land zoned for a half-dozen buildings. It's still a fenced in mess and unencumbered adjacent land is being sold and built on.


For this to work, the city will need to build the foundation for any overhead buildings as part of station construction at their own expense. This will probably add $40M to each station price and comes with the risk that it still may not sell at a price that breaks even.
 
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