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New Member
Thanks rbt for clarifying my point.
BurlOak, I do agree with you that there is waste in the government system as many services can be delivered more efficiently. The issue is how much waste is there and what can we realistically recover? If we even do save billions of dollars there is always the pressure of cutting taxes to "give the money back to the taxpayers" or funding many of our other pressing needs such as health and education.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The Environmental Project Report Addendum is now available for the Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail Transit. - See this link.
To clarify:
The 2010 EPR was originally:
The revision includes:
Go to the link to download the PDFs, located near the bottom of the page.
In accordance with Ontario Regulation 231/08, the TTC and City of Toronto conducted an environmental impact assessment of the Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail Transit (LRT) Project; a 33-kilometre electrically-powered LRT line extending from the Lester B. Pearson International Airport in the City of Mississauga to Kennedy Station in the City of Toronto. An Environmental Project Report (EPR) for this transit project was completed March 12, 2010 and a Statement of Completion submitted to the Ministry of the Environment in May 2010.
Subsequently, in 2012, Metrolinx assumed management responsibility for the project and has become the sole proponent. Metrolinx has identified the need to revise the project between Jane Street and Keelesdale Park to:
- Divide the implementation of the project into two phases at Weston Road (the site of the Mount Dennis Station) and proceed with the phase from Mount Dennis Station to Kennedy Station and defer the section from Weston Road to Pearson International Airport due to funding limitations;
- Include at the western terminus of the first phase (at Mount Dennis Station) a 15-bay bus terminal (not previously assessed in the original EPR);
- Re-configure the LRT between Jane Street and Keelesdale Park from a surface LRT line in the centre of Eglinton Avenue West to a grade-separated LRT line to improve operations; and,
- Assess the environmental impacts of a Maintenance and Storage Facility (MSF), where light rail vehicles would be maintained and stored (the effects of which were not previously assessed in the original EPR).
An addendum to the Environmental Project Report for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT has been prepared and is now available for a 30-day review period starting October 18, 2013.
To clarify:
The 2010 EPR was originally:
The revision includes:
Go to the link to download the PDFs, located near the bottom of the page.
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Ozman
Active Member
So while we wait for the next round of open houses/meetings re: the Eglinton Crosstown (which Metrolinx tells me will be happening this fall), I thought I'd muse about some of the ramifications of the line when it finally opens.
Please correct me if you find errors in my analysis or if you can add anything that perhaps I hadn't heard about or hadn't considered.
The storage track that was planned for east of Eglinton-Yonge station (in the EA) has been moved to near Avenue Road station (presumably east of the station). I believe it has been moved because Eglinton-Yonge is already so complex and the many utilities in the area make adding more complexity undesirable if not impossible. So eastbound trains will not be able to short-turn at Yonge if necessary but instead will have to continue to Laird. Westbound trains though, could short-turn at Yonge if there was a problem on the western portion of the line.
By reverting to the original EA, the (briefly proposed) 3-track 2-platform Don Mills station has been abandoned as the tunnel won't be going all the way to Don Mills. In the EA, it showed a storage track between Don Mills stn. and the east Don Mills portal but I believe when more detailed design was undertaken, it was found that the storage track would not fit between the station and the portal unless the portal was moved east. That would result in the elimination of the Ferrand stop which was (briefly) proposed then abandoned along with the extended tunnel. So Ferrand stop stays, the portal doesn't move and the storage track is eliminated. Since Don Mills won't be the last station of the tunnel, there's no point building an elaborate and expensive station when any short-turnings would happen at Laird as the easternmost grade-separated station. ATO would also not continue past Laird since the grade-separation ends when the line will cross through the Leslie intersection.
I still can't believe that they will actually build the line underground to two-thirds of the way from Laird to Leslie and then go underground again west of Don Mills only to have a small half-mile stretch at Leslie NOT be grade-separated. This one weak link will have considerable ramifications:
The headway will drop east of the tunnel section. Because of the end of grade-separation and the inability to use ATO, every other train will short-turn at Laird. So everyone from Mt. Dennis to Leaside will get good headways and frequent service. East of Laird, (including high-volume-future hub Don Mills) will get reduced service. This will mean that Don Mills station, with its high-volume and high-volume buses entering the terminal there will get reduced frequency service.
Lower volume Laird station will get better service and it will have no bus terminal at all. Here lies a huge potential problem. I believe the plan is to through-route north-south bus routes that cross Eglinton and presently turn along to go to the subway at Yonge Street. So the Avenue Road bus will run through from Queen's Park to Hwy. 401, the Mt. Pleasant from St. Clair Station to Doncliffe and the Leaside 56 will be combined with the Leslie 51 to go from Donlands station to Steeles.
This route will be travelling along Eglinton between Leslie and Laird and dumping passengers at Laird Station with no bus terminal. Additionally, there is a proposed Eglinton 34 route which will run from Mt. Dennis to Kennedy and most likely the South Leaside 88 will swing up and travel on Eglinton between Brentcliffe and Laird so it can feed the LRT as well. People travelling east on Eglinton (if on a short-turn train) may get off and get on the 34 at Laird (rather than wait for the next LRT only to have to transfer again closer to their destination). This would make sense at Don Mills with its terminal but will create more delays (through loading time) and thus traffic around Laird where there is no terminal.
Also, as someone else on this forum predicted, when the Lawrence East 54 (and Flemingdon Park 100) buses arrive at Don Mills terminal where they are proposed to terminate, and the LRT's are already full (due to reduced frequency) it will be chaos. Soon they'll end up sending the 54 or maybe both on to Laird where there are more trains and this will create traffic chaos in Leaside.
It should be interesting. Because Don Mills is a hub, because of ATO, and because of its bus terminal and feeder routes, the Eglinton Crosstown must be grade-separated to Don Mills. To fail to do so would be a colossal mistake in my opinion. They tried to extend the tunnel but abandoned that in the face of opposition by a few Leslie stop proponents. They then gave up on any south-side alignment alternative and seem to be resigned to the original EA plan.
If the east tunnel contract has indeed already been awarded, I fear it may already be too late but until they start digging, there's still hope. Surely they will come to their senses and devise a sensible plan like they did at the Mount Dennis end of the line. I'm not holding my breath.
Please correct me if you find errors in my analysis or if you can add anything that perhaps I hadn't heard about or hadn't considered.
The storage track that was planned for east of Eglinton-Yonge station (in the EA) has been moved to near Avenue Road station (presumably east of the station). I believe it has been moved because Eglinton-Yonge is already so complex and the many utilities in the area make adding more complexity undesirable if not impossible. So eastbound trains will not be able to short-turn at Yonge if necessary but instead will have to continue to Laird. Westbound trains though, could short-turn at Yonge if there was a problem on the western portion of the line.
By reverting to the original EA, the (briefly proposed) 3-track 2-platform Don Mills station has been abandoned as the tunnel won't be going all the way to Don Mills. In the EA, it showed a storage track between Don Mills stn. and the east Don Mills portal but I believe when more detailed design was undertaken, it was found that the storage track would not fit between the station and the portal unless the portal was moved east. That would result in the elimination of the Ferrand stop which was (briefly) proposed then abandoned along with the extended tunnel. So Ferrand stop stays, the portal doesn't move and the storage track is eliminated. Since Don Mills won't be the last station of the tunnel, there's no point building an elaborate and expensive station when any short-turnings would happen at Laird as the easternmost grade-separated station. ATO would also not continue past Laird since the grade-separation ends when the line will cross through the Leslie intersection.
I still can't believe that they will actually build the line underground to two-thirds of the way from Laird to Leslie and then go underground again west of Don Mills only to have a small half-mile stretch at Leslie NOT be grade-separated. This one weak link will have considerable ramifications:
The headway will drop east of the tunnel section. Because of the end of grade-separation and the inability to use ATO, every other train will short-turn at Laird. So everyone from Mt. Dennis to Leaside will get good headways and frequent service. East of Laird, (including high-volume-future hub Don Mills) will get reduced service. This will mean that Don Mills station, with its high-volume and high-volume buses entering the terminal there will get reduced frequency service.
Lower volume Laird station will get better service and it will have no bus terminal at all. Here lies a huge potential problem. I believe the plan is to through-route north-south bus routes that cross Eglinton and presently turn along to go to the subway at Yonge Street. So the Avenue Road bus will run through from Queen's Park to Hwy. 401, the Mt. Pleasant from St. Clair Station to Doncliffe and the Leaside 56 will be combined with the Leslie 51 to go from Donlands station to Steeles.
This route will be travelling along Eglinton between Leslie and Laird and dumping passengers at Laird Station with no bus terminal. Additionally, there is a proposed Eglinton 34 route which will run from Mt. Dennis to Kennedy and most likely the South Leaside 88 will swing up and travel on Eglinton between Brentcliffe and Laird so it can feed the LRT as well. People travelling east on Eglinton (if on a short-turn train) may get off and get on the 34 at Laird (rather than wait for the next LRT only to have to transfer again closer to their destination). This would make sense at Don Mills with its terminal but will create more delays (through loading time) and thus traffic around Laird where there is no terminal.
Also, as someone else on this forum predicted, when the Lawrence East 54 (and Flemingdon Park 100) buses arrive at Don Mills terminal where they are proposed to terminate, and the LRT's are already full (due to reduced frequency) it will be chaos. Soon they'll end up sending the 54 or maybe both on to Laird where there are more trains and this will create traffic chaos in Leaside.
It should be interesting. Because Don Mills is a hub, because of ATO, and because of its bus terminal and feeder routes, the Eglinton Crosstown must be grade-separated to Don Mills. To fail to do so would be a colossal mistake in my opinion. They tried to extend the tunnel but abandoned that in the face of opposition by a few Leslie stop proponents. They then gave up on any south-side alignment alternative and seem to be resigned to the original EA plan.
If the east tunnel contract has indeed already been awarded, I fear it may already be too late but until they start digging, there's still hope. Surely they will come to their senses and devise a sensible plan like they did at the Mount Dennis end of the line. I'm not holding my breath.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
There will be 90 second service on the grade seperated portion to deal with the much heavier demand, and every 3 minutes on the surface portion. Still great frequencies, equivalent to our entire subway network. I'm guessing Metrolinx will fix up the dumping spots for the Buses as well a bit. The LRT will work exactly as the Spadina line currently does, where every other train turns around at St. Clair. (which will be Eglinton when the LRT opens) When waiting for a train, and knowing that you will be traveling east of Laird, you simply wait for one that goes east of Laird. No transfers, just 90 seconds more waiting. Metrolinx will also be Running 3 car trains on this line, even on the surface portions, so that should help with capacity as well. (compared to 2 car trains on Sheppard and Finch)
I think it should grade seperated to Don Mills as well, but probably won't be the disaster you are predicting. I doubt they have handed out the Eastern contract yet either as they still need to figure out what to do with the TBMs when they get to Yonge street, which is what they will be doing in the Fall.
I think it should grade seperated to Don Mills as well, but probably won't be the disaster you are predicting. I doubt they have handed out the Eastern contract yet either as they still need to figure out what to do with the TBMs when they get to Yonge street, which is what they will be doing in the Fall.
Ozman
Active Member
Thanks for the info. Insert. Wow, I didn't realize the frequencies would be that good! Every 3 minutes is good but every 90 seconds on the underground is really impressive. I also hadn't heard that they were definitely going with 3 car trains from the start. I thought they were starting with two car trains with the possibility of expanding to 3 if and when demand warranted. I also thought the stations were going to be similar to the Sheppard subway. The station box built for 3 cars but the platform only finished for public use up to the length of two cars. When did they make this change? This is indeed good news.
A question re: your Spadina line reference. Does every other subway always short-turn at St. Clair West or just at rush-hours and will this be the same on Eglinton?
Also when the LRT opens will not the Spadina short-turn move north to Wilson? I thought I heard somewhere that they were originally going to short-turn at Sheppard West (presently known as Downsview) but there wasn't enough room for a storage track north of the station before the line curves, so they're building it south of the station and therefore short-turning at Wilson. You mentioned Eglinton when the LRT opened but that could have been a typo or yet another piece of info. I hadn't heard.
Thanks again for the response!
innsertnamehere
Superstar
In 2016 only 1/4 of the trains will go all the way to Vaughan city Centre. This will result in around an 7-8 minute frequency, quite low. come 2016, frequency will be around 10 minutes until ATC gets implemented and frequencies can be increased in 2018. 1/2 the trains will turn back at St. Clair, and 1/2 again at Downsview (which will be renamed Sheppard West). come 2020, the first turn back point will be moved up to Eglinton to deal with increased demand from the Eglinton LRT.
My understanding is that the trains will be 90m long, around 10 meters shorter than Sheppard Subway platforms. (which are 100 meters long) Regular platforms for the subway is 150 meters long.
My understanding is that the trains will be 90m long, around 10 meters shorter than Sheppard Subway platforms. (which are 100 meters long) Regular platforms for the subway is 150 meters long.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
In the EA update, they include the following references to the bus routes that may use the Mt. Dennis Station bus terminal:
I don't agree with the 34 Eglinton running parallel to the LRT. If they do, they should run a bus parallel to the Bloor-Danforth subway as well.
I don't agree with the 34 Eglinton running parallel to the LRT. If they do, they should run a bus parallel to the Bloor-Danforth subway as well.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
No Scarlett road bus? That should connect, it would allow for our god-foresaken mayor to take transit to work every day, and on his much hated LRT line.
Johnny Au
Senior Member
To Rob Ford: Yes, but much of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT is underground as not to impede motor traffic.
BurlOak
Senior Member
I wrote Metrolinx a month or two ago and asked about the south side alignment through Leslie and the possibility of elevating the line from DVP to Kennedy. They obviously did not want to answer my question - the made reference to the TTC SRT study.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
^ it was probably some intern answering e-mails that doesn't understand the difference between the two. I suggest going to the public meetings, that way you get to directly speak to the people in control of such things.
BurlOak
Senior Member
The strange thing is that even though Ford seems to hate LRT in the median, he is completely ignoring the Eglinton LRT being in the median through Leslie and from DVP to Kennedy. I do not expect much innovative and creative thought from Ford, but it is noteworthy that through this entire Scarborough Subway thing - he has not stopped one kilometre of in-median LRT from being built.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Actually, when Rob "cancelled" Transit City, he wanted the Eglinton to be all underground. Eglington reverted back to its original plan when he lost the vote at council.
The Scarlett Road bus would connect when phase 2 continues the Eglinton to YYZ. Also when phase 2 continues, one of the two bus terminals at Mt. Dennis would be decommissioned. There would be less buses terminating at Mt. Dennis with phase 2.
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mrxbombastic
Active Member
Respectfully, that would be a disaster. The Scarlet bus already curves and winds and is subject to a lot of small delays/bunching while running through the slower, tighter residential streets. Making the route run to Mount Dennis and then back to Scarlett to continue its trip would be a poor choice. If the however broke up the route into two say:
1) Runnymede stn via current route to Eglinton to Mount Dennis and back to Runnymede reverse
2) Mount Dennis to scarlett via Eglinton, north along dixon to Islington and back via Islington, Westway/Lawrence, Scarlett, Eglinton to Mount Dennis
then it becomes something to be considered.
Personally living just north of Scarlett and Eglinton i would no longer use the Scarlett bus if i had to make a more meandering trip to get downtown, or to Bloor West Village or out to islington/bloor area. The current bus route serves the population and route demands quite well from my intimate experience.
All this to finally say that if it got Mr Ford to take that bus more often, I'm not sure us riders would be too happy. The buses are already very crowded in the peaks and his addition would make things just a little more claustrophobic.