Toronto City Summit Alliance: GTA needs road tolls and taxes now

[kEiThZ]

Fine then, real change won't or will happen albeit very slowly.

That's fine with me. I am not going to throw out democracy just because somebody's crying, "The sky is falling!"

I do have confidence though, that the public will support a plan if it's reasonable and politicians can make an honest and reasoned argument for it. It's when they try to impose solutions that they come up against public opposition.

 

[kEiThZ]

second: think vehicle registration tax. Toronto already has one. I'd be partial to a levy on a per km basis (based on odometer readings at renewal).

Now that gas prices just went up 8 cents, I'd say that's a non-starter. I support the idea. But I doubt there's much support for it right now. One way to pull it off though is to setup the fee level so that the vast majority of drivers pay the same or less than today's plate tax in Toronto. And then slowly raise it over time.

Stores and most employers would be likelier to just eat a parking tax.

Initially. But being the good business people they are, they will look to cut costs eventually. And at that point, they'll cut out parking spaces.

There is significant overhead in collecting parking fees, and it would be a very wasteful process to mandate it.

There's also significant overhead in collecting a trash bin tax. We did that. As long as they bring in enough to cover their administrative costs, it'll be a good start.

The only place where you'd see rates rise is in places where they already charge for parking. Ie: it's a dumb idea.

Why is that a bad idea? You complain about how much overhead there is and then complain when the places with infrastructure in place administer your tax? It's not a bad idea at all. It will make lots far less of a lucrative venture. Prices will go up, demand will go down. And despite the charges today, it still seems to me that the places that charge for parking are still areas where there's lots of congestion.

We already have a proven infrastructure for collecting highway tolls and it works quite well.

And it's part of the system. Not the whole system. People might tolerate tolling the Gardiner. They won't tolerate tolling the 401....and you'll get significant complaints form non-GTA residents who have to pass through the area. It's a politicial non-starter. I can maybe see them tolling just the Express or the Collectors or vice versa.

Also, tolling will merely end up shifting at least some of the problem. How much traffic will spill out on to the arterials because the highways are tolled?

 

[mpd618]

Also, tolling will merely end up shifting at least some of the problem. How much traffic will spill out on to the arterials because the highways are tolled?

Sure, let it spill out to arterials -- but first put bus lanes and cycle tracks on them. Maybe some trees, even!

 

[afransen]

Now that gas prices just went up 8 cents, I'd say that's a non-starter. I support the idea. But I doubt there's much support for it right now. One way to pull it off though is to setup the fee level so that the vast majority of drivers pay the same or less than today's plate tax in Toronto. And then slowly raise it over time.

Quite doable. Or my suggestion to offset the per km plate charge with an elimination of the provincial gasoline excise tax, since we'll be challenged on that front with vehicles that use electricity for part or all of their energy.

Initially. But being the good business people they are, they will look to cut costs eventually. And at that point, they'll cut out parking spaces.

Do what? Rip out asphalt? No parking signs? I can't see a big box doing this, or a suburban office park. Cost of business, etc.

There's also significant overhead in collecting a trash bin tax. We did that. As long as they bring in enough to cover their administrative costs, it'll be a good start.

Not even remotely comparable. The bin tax is a once annual fee. Charging for parking is a ~24/7 process requiring attendants/enforcement at every lot.

Besides, I think we should aim higher than to have taxes just cover the cost of the bureaucracy that administers them.

Why is that a bad idea? You complain about how much overhead there is and then complain when the places with infrastructure in place administer your tax? It's not a bad idea at all. It will make lots far less of a lucrative venture. Prices will go up, demand will go down. And despite the charges today, it still seems to me that the places that charge for parking are still areas where there's lots of congestion.

I'm saying that it won't do anything to significantly influence congestion where it does not result in a user fee. And a user fee for parking would be very costly to collect. So either it's a tax grab that does nothing to affect congestion (raise property tax rates instead) or an expensive to collect and enforce user-fee (consider other alternatives).

And it's part of the system. Not the whole system. People might tolerate tolling the Gardiner. They won't tolerate tolling the 401....and you'll get significant complaints form non-GTA residents who have to pass through the area. It's a politicial non-starter. I can maybe see them tolling just the Express or the Collectors or vice versa.

Also, tolling will merely end up shifting at least some of the problem. How much traffic will spill out on to the arterials because the highways are tolled?

Why should highways be free, especially for non-residents? Should people from outside the GTA be exempt from the parking tax, too? What about hotel taxes? They are getting a valuable service in exchange for the toll. Beyond that, they can reduce their cost by travelling off-peak, or at least they can travel through the region without getting stuck in 2 or 3 hours of gridlock.

I'm not saying there ought to be a toll at all times either. I would accept the toll even falling to zero when there is no congestion, or at least wear-and-tear recovery costs.

Some traffic would shift to arterials, but I doubt it would be significant. Travel times would get unacceptable pretty quickly. No one is going to drive from Markham or Oshawa to Mississauga using arterials.

 

[kEiThZ]

Quite doable. Or my suggestion to offset the per km plate charge with an elimination of the provincial gasoline excise tax, since we'll be challenged on that front with vehicles that use electricity for part or all of their energy.

I'd support that idea sans GPS tracking (odometer readings only). And I agree with you we gotta move to this model eventually as cars become more fuel efficient. The problem here, however, is more specific than that. This is about congestion. Distance based fees might reduce some driving. But it won't necessarily prevent congestion.

Do what? Rip out asphalt? No parking signs? I can't see a big box doing this, or a suburban office park. Cost of business, etc.

Why not? Look at Scarborough Town Centre or any other big mall. You are now getting stores and fast food joints at the peripheries of those mega-mall parking lots. Even smaller malls like Malvern Town Centre are now seeing the same thing. Lift the restrictions first and then slowly bring in the taxes to accelerate this process.

Not even remotely comparable. The bin tax is a once annual fee. Charging for parking is a ~24/7 process requiring attendants/enforcement at every lot.

Besides, I think we should aim higher than to have taxes just cover the cost of the bureaucracy that administers them.



I'm saying that it won't do anything to significantly influence congestion where it does not result in a user fee. And a user fee for parking would be very costly to collect. So either it's a tax grab that does nothing to affect congestion (raise property tax rates instead) or an expensive to collect and enforce user-fee (consider other alternatives).

The problem is that your user fee is a big hammer on a small nail. You are penalizing somebody who works the graveyard shift and drives when there is no congestion on the road, the same as somebody who drives during rush hour.

Ideally, there's be road tolls. But if those aren't popular, I'd rather see a parking tax in congested area, then city-wide mileage taxes that just increase the cost of driving vice targeting congested areas. Now if your goal is simply to make driving expensive, that's another matter.

Why should highways be free, especially for non-residents?

They don't have to be free but they should not hinder those passing through. This is not the US where there are tons of alternatives. There are two ways to drive through Toronto and one is already tolled.

Keep in mind that these are provincial highways and are meant for the benefit of all Ontarians. It would be viewed by the rest of the province as blatantly unfair for Torontonians to tax what amounts to a vital economic artery. Otherwise, you let the province pick up the revenue. How does that sit with you?

Should people from outside the GTA be exempt from the parking tax, too? What about hotel taxes?

Now you are just being dramatic. I never said anybody should be given exemptions. What I said is that we have to recognize the unique situation of the 401. There's really no other alternative. Taxing it for through traffic would be seen as a huge money grab.

They are getting a valuable service in exchange for the toll. Beyond that, they can reduce their cost by travelling off-peak, or at least they can travel through the region without getting stuck in 2 or 3 hours of gridlock.

And you don't think people do that now? It's mostly GTA residents clogging up the roads. It's not like trucks choose to drive around during rush hour unless absolutely necessary.

This is why I say that it's only the collectors that should be tolled and you can have some sort of through traffic exemption. For example if you get on the collectors but then get on the express and take that out of Toronto (never rejoining the collectors again) you don't pay a toll. But if you get on the collectors, then the express and back on the collectors to get off at a different exit, you pay the toll. Or you get on the collectors after entering Toronto on the Express and then exit, you pay a toll.

I'm not saying there ought to be a toll at all times either. I would accept the toll even falling to zero when there is no congestion, or at least wear-and-tear recovery costs.

Fair enough. Didn't catch that.

Some traffic would shift to arterials, but I doubt it would be significant. Travel times would get unacceptable pretty quickly. No one is going to drive from Markham or Oshawa to Mississauga using arterials.

That's not the problem. People will drive from Morningside to Kennedy on Sheppard or Ellesmere though. And that's the problem.

That said, I support tolls. My parking idea is only applicable if tolls can't be done. It's much easier to implement because it's indirect.

 

[afransen]

We charge money for all kinds of things built with public money for the benefit of Ontarians. Ontario Hydro was built by the government, and no one is suggesting free hydro. After all, free hydro would mean rolling blackouts due to overconsumption. A bit like a gridlocked highway that no one gets to enjoy.

As a compromise to people who may drive through occasionally, I'd support a 'first $100 of tolls per year are free' policy, so very occasional users pay no tolls. As far as whether the province gets the toll revenue, I'm assuming that the revenue would flow to Metrolinx but that organization would take responsibility for highway expansion and maintenance (downloading it from the province). At any rate, this is similar to the discount on the first X kWh of electricity each month.

You're saying that it can't be done, politically. I'm not convinced. If you made it totally transparent that the money went to some regional transportation authority rather than getting dumped into provincial or municipal coffers from where it may or may not make its way to transportation, it seems like there would be general public support. People seem to be getting the sense that we need to get serious about investing in infrastructure. I think an initially small but rising toll could be done, especially with some sweeteners on the side.

The province is going to have to do something about fuel excise taxes, though. That is going to be a big problem in a few years.

 

[kEiThZ]

Seems we are closer in views....

I'd agree that it would work if Metrolinx was collecting the tolls. And this is something I have long advocated for. I would love for Metrolinx to become like TfL, an all-singing, all-dancing transport authority that does everything from roads to transit to taxi licensing (gers over moronic issues likes the fight over airport taxis). However, i do think it won't be politically feasible unless this happens.

Imagine how people will react to news that the Mayor or Premier are tolling the 401. That'll be the end of either of their political careers.

Yet, will we ever see a provincial government willing to so emplower Metrolinx?

 

[afransen]

We'll see what the province does in response to the Metrolinx funding plan. That is due to be submitted after the next provincial election--maybe Dalton will have the guts to so empower Metrolinx then.