Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
no road tolls as I am currently being dismantled by the HST (Horse Sh*t Tax)
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Toronto City Summit Alliance: GTA needs road tolls and taxes now
- Thread starter kettal
- Start date
SlickFranky
Active Member
how so?
Dan416
Senior Member
With the HST instead of GST applied to gas now (13% instead of 5%), those extra 8 percentage points should really go to public transit. That's not chump change.
nfitz
Superstar
Given that they significantly dropped income tax, and the corporate tax rates, when they replaced the 13% PST/GST with the 13% HST, there isn't really anything left over for anything. I suppose there's the $billion of bribery they got from the feds to do this ... but that all went out in the transition payments we are all receiving.
The whole thing is pretty neutral in tax revenues.
But you do raise a point. Rather than simply having tolls, we could look at other taxation sources. Perhaps increasing the HST from 13% to 15% to pay for transit. Or we could go for the high fuel taxes many countries have ... which is why gas is so much cheaper here than most countries.
Dan416
Senior Member
Yes I've made the point before. I'd prefer several smaller tax increases (1% on HST, small road tolls, small congestion charges, small parking taxes, slightly higher fuel taxes) rather than trying to rely on one of them to pay for all the transit expansion that we need.
nfitz
Superstar
Speaking of parking taxes ... from what I've seen, the Green P underground lot prices are significantly lower (downtown at least) than private underground lots. Shouldn't these be kept in line with private prices?
Northern Light
Superstar
Nfitz,
Green P prices are artificially low, on-street and off.
As I've noted in past thread on the on-street prices, Vancouver, and Calgary both charge $5 per hour for on-street prices; Chicago is on its way to $6.50 in 2013; while Toronto is sitting at only $3.50
They could easily generate more money.
But they perceive their mandate to be economic development, and intentionally under price.
Its been really hard to get them to change.
I have estimated, that conservatively, allowing for a marginal drop in demand in some areas, that if prices were raised by an average of $1.00 per hour (on and off-street) and daily maximums by $4.00 that the TPA (Green P) would be able to generate at least $10,000,000 in additional NET revenue per year. There's not way of knowing though, since so far, they refuse to try.
Green P prices are artificially low, on-street and off.
As I've noted in past thread on the on-street prices, Vancouver, and Calgary both charge $5 per hour for on-street prices; Chicago is on its way to $6.50 in 2013; while Toronto is sitting at only $3.50
They could easily generate more money.
But they perceive their mandate to be economic development, and intentionally under price.
Its been really hard to get them to change.
I have estimated, that conservatively, allowing for a marginal drop in demand in some areas, that if prices were raised by an average of $1.00 per hour (on and off-street) and daily maximums by $4.00 that the TPA (Green P) would be able to generate at least $10,000,000 in additional NET revenue per year. There's not way of knowing though, since so far, they refuse to try.
rbt
Senior Member
Chicago had the same issue. It was politically difficult to change the rates via normal channels, so they sold the whole thing off to a private firm who is taking roughly a $500M cut for boosting the city revenue from that resource over the life of the agreement.
I believe TPA shows their profit as being in the $80M/year range; so I expect the increased revenue would be higher than $10M.
Electrify
Senior Member
Haven't read the pdf, but from what I've read in The Star it comes off as anti-car rhetoric with little thought.
First, we can throw all the money we want at transit, but if the bus is still going to stop every few hundred meters then people will still drive. We need to have an efficient and competitive transit plan to build towards before we start taxing or tolling, otherwise it will likely become another cash grab.
Secondly, building off the first point, if we don't have any alternatives to driving (or at least planned and ready to go), then any taxes or tolls simply become another cash grab. For example, tolling trips between Barrie and Toronto may get downtown-bound commuters on to transit, but what about those who have destinations in other places in the GTA? It is unlikely that transit between Mississauga and Barrie will be adequate in our lifetimes. What about the transport of goods between northern and southern Ontario? If not executed properly, a 400 road toll could be disasterous to living costs in the Toronto area.
This is why I really liked Sarah Thomson's tolling strategy. They would be implemented only during the rush hour into the CBD, when numerous alternatives to driving exist. And while some who must drive for whatever reason would be dinged, in theory their trips would be far less congested and stressful. But simply taxing and tolling any driving or vehicle ownership is counter-productive.
First, we can throw all the money we want at transit, but if the bus is still going to stop every few hundred meters then people will still drive. We need to have an efficient and competitive transit plan to build towards before we start taxing or tolling, otherwise it will likely become another cash grab.
Secondly, building off the first point, if we don't have any alternatives to driving (or at least planned and ready to go), then any taxes or tolls simply become another cash grab. For example, tolling trips between Barrie and Toronto may get downtown-bound commuters on to transit, but what about those who have destinations in other places in the GTA? It is unlikely that transit between Mississauga and Barrie will be adequate in our lifetimes. What about the transport of goods between northern and southern Ontario? If not executed properly, a 400 road toll could be disasterous to living costs in the Toronto area.
This is why I really liked Sarah Thomson's tolling strategy. They would be implemented only during the rush hour into the CBD, when numerous alternatives to driving exist. And while some who must drive for whatever reason would be dinged, in theory their trips would be far less congested and stressful. But simply taxing and tolling any driving or vehicle ownership is counter-productive.
afransen
Senior Member
Why shouldn't we charge for highways at the point of use? Any time you give away anything for no marginal cost, it is over-consumed. There is no god-given right to state provided highways to support 100 km commutes.
kEiThZ
Superstar
+1
I would vote for him on this issue alone even if he proposed funding religious schools again. Fixing our urban policies is that important to me.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
You should really read the report - at least the Exec Summary. You're way off base with this assumption.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Works in theory. But I disagree that it's fair in practice. Is it fair to ding a Barrie-Mississauga business traveller who happens to get caught in the congestion on the 400 from Toronto bound commuters?
I'd much rather penalize based on the availability of an alternative. To start with, impose parking taxes in the CBD. Forget tolls. Parking taxes work much more stealthily and will probably be far more effective. Require all commercial and residential owners to declare how many parking spots they have. Then tax them according to the areas they are in and based on congestion. Not just the CBD. But maybe tax parking spots along heavily congested corridors like central Eglinton. I am willing to bet that as soon as any semblance of free parking in the core ends and parking rates become $20 per day standard, you'll see a lot less driving to the core.
mpd618
Active Member
Is this a trick question? Of course it's fair. Charging him for a congestion-free ride is, if anything, much more fair than forcing him to stick it out on a congested highway (note that commuting is the daily activity most injurious to happiness!).
You don't need alternatives to work for everyone for congestion charges to be effective. If most peak-hour traffic on the 400 is between Barrie and Toronto and if GO provides sufficient transit, then congestion charges will clear up the road for everyone, including those with weird trips.
Parking is another resource with questionable subsidies. The first order of business there should be to eliminate zoning policies that require parking to be provided with every land use, and the second would be to charge market prices for municipally-owned parking. If employers provide free parking, force them to offer "parking cash-out" for employees who would prefer the cash value instead of the parking spot itself. Just as with "induced demand" on highways, a lot of parking is "induced parking", and charging the right price (i.e. the market price) will cause many of those cars to simply disappear.
nfitz
Superstar
As a frequent business traveller ... it's 100% fair. The cost of lost time is huge - far more than the toll. Say the cost of lost time is $100 per hour. If one is driving 100 km/hr, then the cost of one hours driving is only $10. If the $10 toll to drive an hour, saves time, and it would take 1 hour and 6 minutes on an untolled highway, the business traveller is ahead.
If tolling reduces congestion and sped up traffic, most businesses would be supportive.