Toronto 10 St Mary | 197.73m | 60s | Mattamy Homes | a—A

ProjectEnd said:
What is "growth and development"? It's real estate.
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The same could be said about any building anywhere. Architecture is, in part, a creative profession. There's an art to it, one that practitioners refine, develop, and advance over the course of their careers. aA's work, at least visually, appears to have stagnated.
 
ProjectEnd said:
Who is "they"? What does "take the money and run" mean? I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it's not up to them. It's up to Mattamy. Folks should really make sure they understand who calls the shots on buildings like this one.
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...even if the developer here where to hire Kirkor or G+C instead, they will be still calling the shots. Although that tells us about the quality of the building we would be getting at the end of the day. /sigh
 
Tarazet said:
Of course I understand that. But are you saying that architecture firms just have to accept that they are building in Toronto and many Toronto developers love bland designs with many insisting on cheap grey spandrel and window wall? No push back? By the way, I’m not saying this tower will necessarily be done with cheap materials, but this is a 60 storey building. One would think that in 2023 we wouldn’t be getting what appears to be just another recycled design. I had just hoped for more from the developer and a_A.
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Kinda, yeah. Different firms will push back in different ways. Some won't at all and will let the client drive the bus entirely. There's lots of room for friendly banter in this exchange, but if you start getting a reputation as being intransigent, regardless of how good your work is, you'll lose your client base and won't be able to work at all. 'Pick your battles' is apt in this vein.
junctionist said:
The same could be said about any building anywhere. Architecture is, in part, a creative profession. There's an art to it, one that practitioners refine, develop, and advance over the course of their careers. aA's work, at least visually, appears to have stagnated.
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'Stagnated' and 'honed' are different sides of the same coin. aA have always had a sharp eye and are able to deliver a consistent product regardless of the client (something even HPA sometimes struggle to do). That's extremely tough to do in this City. Further, are you trying to tell me that in your eye, Junction Point is 'essentially the same' as this? "Stagnated" indeed...
 
ProjectEnd said:
Kinda, yeah. Different firms will push back in different ways. Some won't at all and will let the client drive the bus entirely. There's lots of room for friendly banter in this exchange, but if you start getting a reputation as being intransigent, regardless of how good your work is, you'll lose your client base and won't be able to work at all. 'Pick your battles' is apt in this vein.
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And thus my comment above about hoping they don’t just ‘take the money and run’ on this one. Design standards have been improving in Toronto in the last few years. Here’s hoping this stale design is not the final iteration. And a sad comment that it’s ‘extremely tough’ to deliver a consistent product in this city. It shouldn’t be. a_A is one of the best firms in the city; they should have earned the right to push back.
 
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ProjectEnd said:
Kinda, yeah. Different firms will push back in different ways. Some won't at all and will let the client drive the bus entirely. There's lots of room for friendly banter in this exchange, but if you start getting a reputation as being intransigent, regardless of how good your work is, you'll lose your client base and won't be able to work at all. 'Pick your battles' is apt in this vein.

'Stagnated' and 'honed' are different sides of the same coin. aA have always had a sharp eye and are able to deliver a consistent product regardless of the client (something even HPA sometimes struggle to do). That's extremely tough to do in this City. Further, are you trying to tell me that in your eye, Junction Point is 'essentially the same' as this? "Stagnated" indeed...
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I totally get what you're saying.

But I have to admit, I impulsively buck hard at people who want to reign in, in me, the things they pay for.

From when I was first out of university and a relative nobody, I remember my first performance review..........and me saying, 3 weeks paid vacation or I leave..........my employers explained this was contrary to policy and not the way they had
treated others, 3 weeks was after 5 years of service.

To which I said, that's nice, I'm worth more.

Don't get me wrong.............there was a wee bit of chaffing. LOL

But I got my 3 weeks.........and 4 promotions in the 2 years that followed.

If you're that damned good, you shouldn't take anyone's BS.

****

Now, is Peter that good? .................uhhhh
 
Northern Light said:
I totally get what you're saying.

But I have to admit, I impulsively buck hard at people who want to reign in, in me, the things they pay for.

From when I was first out of university and a relative nobody, I remember my first performance review..........and me saying, 3 weeks paid vacation or I leave..........my employers explained this was contrary to policy and not the way they had
treated others, 3 weeks was after 5 years of service.

To which I said, that's nice, I'm worth more.

Don't get me wrong.............there was a wee bit of chaffing. LOL

But I got my 3 weeks.........and 4 promotions in the 2 years that followed.

If you're that damned good, you shouldn't take anyone's BS.

****

Now, is Peter that good? .................uhhhh
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I mean, HPA aside, who at this level is better?
 
ProjectEnd said:
HPA aside, who at this level is better?
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Oh now, that's an interesting question, do we have to stay strictly local?

There's variability in project quality for all firms of course.

But if you asked me, among local firms, whose work I most consistently enjoyed (who have finished projects)

It would be HPA, and BDPQ up at the top with Giannone Petricone running in third.

I really like a lot of what I'm seeing from Gabriel Fain, but we have few complete projects on which to judge delivery.

A challenge with AA from my perspective is that I find much of their work cold. There's a measure of competence in delivery; but the dearth of colour and warmth in most of their offerings is tangible.

I can think of many players currently working in Toronto, but not Toronto-based, whose work I would prefer to Peter's every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

****

To be clear, I don't know what the final offering here will be, and I'm not throwing aA under the bus for something it hasn't messed up yet.

I'm just saying as general attitude, I'm disinclined to let the client drive the bus.
 
Northern Light said:
Oh now, that's an interesting question, do we have to stay strictly local?

There's variability in project quality for all firms of course.

But if you asked me, among local firms, whose work I most consistently enjoyed (who have finished projects)

It would be HPA, and BDPQ up at the top with Giannone Petricone running in third.

I really like a lot of what I'm seeing from Gabriel Fain, but we have few complete projects on which to judge delivery.

A challenge with AA from my perspective is that I find much of their work cold. There's a measure of competence in delivery; but the dearth of colour and warmth in most of their offerings is tangible.

I can think of many players currently working in Toronto, but not Toronto-based, whose work I would prefer to Peter's every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

****

To be clear, I don't know what the final offering here will be, and I'm not throwing aA under the bus for something it hasn't messed up yet.

I'm just saying as general attitude, I'm disinclined to let the client drive the bus.
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Few developers go international because of the expense. Big-name firms from NYC or London or Northern Europe come with substantial price tags so for residential work, most stay away unless it's rental and they're retaining it in their portfolio or they think they can get a significant price bump from that name.

In terms of their built multifamily work, which GPA building is superb? Good? Alright? Flaire is ok, I guess, but remarkable? Nah. I hope @tstormers doesn't take this the wrong way, but outside of Pina's beautiful interior work, and the firm's strong track record of sexy custom homes, which completed building in the multi-family portfolio prompts you to list them in this class? It's the same with Gabriel. Great guy, excellent paper work, but what is there in the real world to benchmark? His smaller office also isn't on the same production level as Peter. That's not a slight, but between WCB and aA, the latter is at ~30 years of running a practice with a portfolio to match.

At the end of the day this is a debate that has gone on on this website for 15+ years and it's one of which (historically) I'm on both sides. Admittedly, it took awhile for me to appreciate aA, but as soon as I came to the other side, it was revelatory. For that I'm indebted to members of a bygone era, most notably @urbanshocker (please come back, Neil, we miss you). All I can supply is an opinion formed on here and honed within this industry and what I hope to impart is a bit of a lens into a complicated, cutthroat, often completely-uncaring, business environment.
 
...in the end though, the developer here opted for duller, cheaper and easier to build residential despite the architect behind it. Hope that doesn't translate into poorer materials as well.
 
In the current hard cost environment, I doubt anyone could have made the previous plan work. It sucks, because it certainly was evocative, but simplifying the form is the only way anyone is getting an actual building here.
 
Fair enough...but under those streamlining initiatives, they could have still knocked out of the park. As Amare-san once posted, this is how we accept mediocrity to that end.
 
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My take, as someone outside the industry, is that aA can still design a fantastic building (Junction Point), but they're just as happy selling an unimaginative glass box to developers who don't aspire to build anything more creative. Hey, there are projects I work on that I'm not particularly excited about. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

At least aA projects tend to have better execution when it comes to materials and detailing though, even the more banal designs.
 
innsertnamehere said:
What’s interesting here is that they managed to minor variance their way out of the Yonge St angular plane. Surprising given other applications on the street are still adhering to it.
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Once Kingsett got 510 Yonge settled in 2022, the angular plane has not really not being adhered to by anyone anymore. 645, 646 and 699 Yonge, and 15 Charles not following it. I understand 15 Charles settled with city last fall cutting right through the angular plane, but maintained the angled tower condition on its top floors
 
egotrippin said:
My take, as someone outside the industry, is that aA can still design a fantastic building (Junction Point), but they're just as happy selling an unimaginative glass box to developers who don't aspire to build anything more creative. Hey, there are projects I work on that I'm not particularly excited about. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

At least aA projects tend to have better execution when it comes to materials and detailing though, even the more banal designs.
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The bar is usually set higher when they're called in.
 
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