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The "School District" question

James - plot the distribution and size of elementary private schools around the city and you will get a fair idea for the lower grades. Pretty impossible to tell after Gr. 6 as kids are more likely to travel out of area for school.
 
How Does A School District Affect The Value Of Your Home? By The Toronto Realty Blog

In a word: greatly.

Now, more than ever before, school districts are having a huge effect on the price of real estate, as buyers are planting deeper roots, and thinking further ahead.

Buyers used to simply accept their feeder school as a given, but today, they often start their housing search based on the schools in certain areas…

Some of my clients often ask me, “How come house prices are so much cheaper in Riverdale on the east side of Pape? The difference is insane!â€

Well as you might infer from the topic of today’s blog, the answer has a lot to do with the various school districts in the area south of Danforth.

Let’s say you’re looking at houses on Bain Avenue, for example.

#1 to #230 Bain Avenue are feeder schools for Withrow Avenue Public School, which has long been favored as the school of choice for Riverdale. It currently ranks 278th in Ontario out of 2,714 by the Fraser Institute.

Houses between #231 and #274 Bain Avenue feed into Pape Street Public School, which, as luck would have it, also ranks 278th in Ontario! Both Withrow & Pape are ranked 8.1/10, and tie for 278th.

Once upon a time, Withrow was in far, far greater demand for families buying into the area, but Pape Avenue P.S. has made huge strides in recent years, and now the two schools are even! You really can’t go wrong with either.

So what about the rest of Bain Avenue? Well, houses east of Pape, from #282 to #345 feed into Blake Street Public School. Sooo……is Blake Street an 8.1 like the others?

No.

It’s a 3.5.

A 3.5 out of 10.

And it ranks, 2,452nd out of 2,714 elementary schools in Ontario, making it one of the worst in the province.

So do you see a difference between a 3-bed, 2-bath, semi-detached house at #234 Bain Avenue and a 3-bed, 2-bath, semi-detached house at #334 Bain Avenue? Say, “no,†and you get the medal for social equality. Or, you’re just blind, and in denial.

Either way, I’m using this example to illustrate just how important school districts are to today’s home-buyers, and I can tell you from experience over the last few years, that this is slowly becoming the #1 criteria for buyers in their searches.

Some areas are relatively unaffected by school districts.

Take The Beaches, for example.

The three main feeder schools in the area are Kew Beach P.S., Balmy Beach P.S., and Williamson Road P.S., which rank 8.4/10 (192nd) and 8.2/10 (254th), and 8.1 (278th) respectively. You have great options with all three schools, and you don’t have a runt-of-the-litter fourth choice like Riverdale residents experience with Blake Street P.S.

If you think I’m being insensitive, or rude, I apologize.

But to pretend inequality doesn’t exist in today’s society, especially in today’s public schools, is to be completely ignorant.

If you’ve read my posts over the last few years, you know that I don’t have a lot of faith in today’s public school system. I have several public school teachers in my family, who I talk to on a regular basis, and all of whom tell stories about how the curriculum and rules have changed that help identify why smaller, private schools are popping up everywhere.

Junior Academy, Greenwood, Toronto Prep – name three, then name ten more.

The term “Private School†no longer has to conjure up images of 1,000+ enrolments like Upper Canada College and some of the other old-world, big names. The smaller schools come with similar tuition fees, but they offer parents more options, both geographically, and in terms of what the school may specialize in.

Now, if you’re sending your children to private school, then clearly the public school district you live in doesn’t matter to you. And maybe it won’t affect your home-buying decision either.

But let me discuss a little theory I’ve developed over the past little while…

Private school tuitions cost, what – $30,000 per child per year? That’s insane, right? Too expensive for many people, if not most?

Right. So what if you could get that education for free?

Sounds too good to be true?

What’s my angle here?

Well, I guess I feel that if you buy into a dynamite school district, then in some respects, you’re getting private school quality for public school cost, which is, of course, free.

Some of the kids I coached in baseball over the last decade were sent to private school for their whole lives. Imagine the cost for that family? $30,000 per year for twelve years, or $360,000. And what if you’re a family of five, with two boys and a girl?

That’s over $1,000,000 in tuition for private school.

So while I’m not suggesting that Bessborough, or Pape, or Withrow are in anywhere equal to St. Mike’s, TFS, or Bishop Strachan, I am suggesting that you can find a happy medium between enrolling your children in a school where the teachers are forced to pass everybody – even ‘lil Johnny who got 28% in grade nine, but who was passed off to the tenth grade, and a school that is going to financially cripple some families in search of higher learning.

Somebody recently asked me, “What school is ranked #1 in Ontario?â€

Good question.

Deer Park Public School ranks a 10.0 out of 10, and along with 15 other schools in Ontario, is ranked #1.

Brown P.S. is the feeder school to Deer Park, and ranks an 8.7/10 – 124th overall.

Yes, the price of real estate is very expensive in the Yonge & St. Clair area where these schools are situated, but if you could save $1,000,000 in private school tuition over the course of your children’s lives by sending them to top public schools, then perhaps this changes the affordability of real estate.

I know, I know – many people reading this are in no position to consider, a) $30K per year for their kid, b) houses on Balmoral or Farnham. But remember that this blog’s purpose is to explore ALL aspects of real estate, even those which may only apply to a small percentage of the city.

For those people who consider education an “investment,†you can see where I’m going with all of this.

Some of the public schools out there are basically daycare centres for teenagers, disguised as schools, and many of the graduates finish without a clue what is expected in the real world. Let’s save the watered-down university degree as a topic for another day…

Real estate buyers have dozens of different criteria in today’s market. Some put access to TTC at the top of their list, to try and minimize their daily commute. Some want to buy in areas that are close to friends and family. Some don’t care where they live, so long as they can get the biggest house possible for their money! Hey – a 50 x 150 foot lot is available in Scarborough for the same cost as a 1-bed-plus-den condo in downtown Toronto!

But in the top-10 criteria of virtually every single home-buyer’s list is school district, and some buyers are making this a diehard #1.

Some buyers are looking at school rankings, picking off schools that rank in the top-200, and saying, “We want to look in these areas.â€

These people see the value in a public school system that is free, but where the quality of the education might not be that far off from what $30K/year can buy in the private sector.

Just as a first-time condo-buyer can plan to save $120/month on a TTC MetroPass if he or she can walk to work each day, a savvy home-buyer that is planting roots for the next 10-15 years can try to buy into a neighborhood where the public schools will enable them to forego private school.

If you’re curious about public school rankings, check out the Fraser Institute’s elementary school rankings.
 
I also recommend using the Fraser institute for school rankings. In addition, I would agree that a driven and hard working student can excel at any school but certainly going to a great school can provide an extra boost for your child. For some parents it is worth paying extra to get into an area with a much better school district.
 
Before we moved to our condo, we had a house almost exactly on the Blake/Pape/Frankland divide. Fortunately for our selling price, we were in the Frankland district. But Frankland, like Jackman IMO, always suffered from a certain amount of yuppie self-consciousness, and is blindingly white.

I'm happy to hear that Pape has picked up, although it's been my observation that it has, like Withrow and especially Frankland, become quite homogenous as Riverdale house values have risen and the Chinese & Vietnamese immigrants that dominated the area in the 1980s have moved to the 905.

Blake sits opposite the Blake Street community housing highrises and towns, which now appear to be filled with newcomers from Afghanistan and maybe Pakistan. There's that mosque nearby on the Danforth. When we first moved to the area, the project was filled with West Indians. I guess it changes with waves of immigration. Anyway, I'm guessing what makes Blake so low-ranked is the parents' inability, out of language difficulties or some other reason, perhaps related to poverty, to pitch in and make the school "better." But I bet there are some high-striving kids in there, egged on by their parents to achieve. Those kids have to learn English, and fast, and end up acting as interpreters for their mothers in dealing with immigration officials, medical professionals and so on. They grow up fast and are very quick studies.

(Yes, I know I am generalizing. But these are realities I have personally observed.)

All these kids crash together at Earl Grey Middle School -- and then you see who the best students are. It's the great equalizer.

Personally, I would rather my child be exposed to as many cultures and income levels as possible, and not grow up thinking all kids get iPads for Christmas.

Elementary school children are very resilient and can recover from a little slower learning in class so that everybody can follow along, especially since the curriculum is the same everywhere.

Besides, I hate the Fraser Institute.
 
Great post, Ex-Montreal Girl. You illuminate lots of nuance not captured by test scores and think tank ratings.
 
(Yes, I know I am generalizing. But these are realities I have personally observed.)
...
Besides, I hate the Fraser Institute.

Good analysis - I think it was very similar in my generation as well. I know many families that grew up under those circumstances and those kids needed to excel fast and mature fast. Where are they now? at well paying jobs... (at least well IMO). Unfortunately, I don't know how well the school ranked in those days, but the kids were all very competitive. As for the Fraser report - sure enough one may hate it - but for those who have no sense (investors, parents who don't attend the school themselves) there isn't any other type of comparison out there. It should be only used as a guide and never the only factor when picking a school. It's just like Montessori schools - unless you hear word of mouth, how does one compare the school to another? It's not unified and unfortunately, there isn't any sort of collective feedback mechanism for the schools that I've found.
 
Thanks for the comments on my post.

My feeling is quite simple: There's more to an elementary school education that provincial test scores. It's not like the kids are trying to get into Harvard ... yet.
 
Sadly the reality of this little ordeal is that real estate buzz because of the school district doesn't always equal better schools. I would agree that there should be a correlation between the two as we would expect higher taxes to create better schools, but it just isn't the case. Schools are just like any other business. The better they are at building their brand and product, the more money they can bring in through sports, taxes, and other revenue streams. There has been a major increase in the number of teachers that are available which has also changed the face of education, as well.
 
Well, I can't say this comes as a surprise. It's a US-based study but still relevant.

“So, does this testing data, acquired at great expense in both money and class time, tell us which schools are doing their job and which are performing poorly? Not at all. Rather, what really jumps out of the data is the extremely strong relationship between school rank and student family income. This correlation is so strong that it is possible to predict the rank of the school in advance with fair accuracy just by using a simple formula that multiples its percentage of low-income students by 4 and subtracts 20….

“In short, what we have managed to learn is that the children of doctors and lawyers do better on standardized tests than the children of day laborers and welfare recipients."
 
^ That article is definitely relevant. What I didn't find surprising was his statement: "...what we have managed to learn is that the children of doctors and lawyers do better on standardized tests than the children of day laborers and welfare recipients."

While it was not surprising, it was most interesting. Fundamentally, the fact that the parents are doctors or lawyers has no direct affect on their kids' academic performance. If it's not their profession per se, and not the household income per se, then what is it that they are doing differently than the parents who are "day laborers and welfare recipients"? Is it because the doctors and lawyers spend more time educating their kids? Do they engage them in more extra-cirricular activities? Do they sit down every night and do something the day labourer doesn't? These are the concepts that I'm more interested in.
 
^ That article is definitely relevant. What I didn't find surprising was his statement: "...what we have managed to learn is that the children of doctors and lawyers do better on standardized tests than the children of day laborers and welfare recipients."

While it was not surprising, it was most interesting. Fundamentally, the fact that the parents are doctors or lawyers has no direct affect on their kids' academic performance. If it's not their profession per se, and not the household income per se, then what is it that they are doing differently than the parents who are "day laborers and welfare recipients"? Is it because the doctors and lawyers spend more time educating their kids? Do they engage them in more extra-cirricular activities? Do they sit down every night and do something the day labourer doesn't? These are the concepts that I'm more interested in.

My guess is that, aside from the factors you suggest, they can also afford tutors, Kumon and the like. They may also be more academic achievement-oriented and, therefore, have higher academic expectations. They may have more books in the house. The TV may be on less. The conversation in general more elevated. This may sound horribly snobbish but I expect it's the reality.
 
Precisely. These are the "why" questions that are more intriguing. If these specific actions can be identified and correlated to the reactions (these reactions being better academic performance), we can have a clearer picture of what makes students succeed and what is the most effective influence in the success of the younger generation.
 
Precisely. These are the "why" questions that are more intriguing. If these specific actions can be identified and correlated to the reactions (these reactions being better academic performance), we can have a clearer picture of what makes students succeed and what is the most effective influence in the success of the younger generation.

Please refer to any standard introductory level textbook on Educational Psychology for information on this topic. The role of social-economic factors in academic underachievement has been a topic of study for many, many decades.
All of the factors ex-Montreal Girl mentioned are important with the addition of health and stress-related effects. In addition, parental expectations influence self-esteem and low self-esteem and/or low expectations on students tends to lead to under-achievement. Self-esteem issues + peer influences also contribute to what is known as resistance culture - rejecting "middle class" culture by not studying, acting out in class, defiance against school norms etc. The general take-home is that many factors contribute to under-achievement.
The good news is that there is a wide acceptance (outside of the TDSB) that education systems can't cure poverty, but can play a very important role in increasing students resilience i.e. their ability to succeed in spite of their situation. (TDSB trustees seem to believe that it is their job to solve social injustice single-handedly and then do some educating...)
 
Interesting, and sort of relevant, paper from the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives, the anti-Fraser Institute: Restacking the Deck: Streaming by class, race and gender in Ontario schools

The way the system has been structured by those in power and the ways in which teachers are required to work within these prescribed boundaries are mainly at fault: the grouping, selective treatment of students, differential program streams, differential expectations, the large classes, the pressure on teachers to cover a standardized curriculum, the lack of opportunities and resources for teachers to offer innovative curricula, courses and programs to students, not to mention the multitude of regulations, policies and procedures that determine where and how teachers will carry out their duties. These factors, and many more, result mainly from conscious decisions made by administrators and politicians, not by teachers.
 
Before we moved to our condo, we had a house almost exactly on the Blake/Pape/Frankland divide. Fortunately for our selling price, we were in the Frankland district. But Frankland, like Jackman IMO, always suffered from a certain amount of yuppie self-consciousness, and is blindingly white.

I'm happy to hear that Pape has picked up, although it's been my observation that it has, like Withrow and especially Frankland, become quite homogenous as Riverdale house values have risen and the Chinese & Vietnamese immigrants that dominated the area in the 1980s have moved to the 905.

Blake sits opposite the Blake Street community housing highrises and towns, which now appear to be filled with newcomers from Afghanistan and maybe Pakistan. There's that mosque nearby on the Danforth. When we first moved to the area, the project was filled with West Indians. I guess it changes with waves of immigration. Anyway, I'm guessing what makes Blake so low-ranked is the parents' inability, out of language difficulties or some other reason, perhaps related to poverty, to pitch in and make the school "better." But I bet there are some high-striving kids in there, egged on by their parents to achieve. Those kids have to learn English, and fast, and end up acting as interpreters for their mothers in dealing with immigration officials, medical professionals and so on. They grow up fast and are very quick studies.

(Yes, I know I am generalizing. But these are realities I have personally observed.)

All these kids crash together at Earl Grey Middle School -- and then you see who the best students are. It's the great equalizer.

Personally, I would rather my child be exposed to as many cultures and income levels as possible, and not grow up thinking all kids get iPads for Christmas.

Elementary school children are very resilient and can recover from a little slower learning in class so that everybody can follow along, especially since the curriculum is the same everywhere.

Besides, I hate the Fraser Institute.

Interesting - Blake is actually getting French Immersion in Fall 2014. I'm not sure if this is the TDSB's attempt to make the school more attractive and diversified or just because Blake had the space. Maybe a combination of both. I think they probably needed to put another class of SK FI into Ward 15 due to overenrollment of FI but it's interesting that they put it at Blake. We used to rent on Strathcona in the Blake school district before we bought our current house and the school definitely wasn't highly thought of. We live about 3.5 km from Blake now but I recently registered my child for SK FI for Fall 2014 and she was redirected to Blake. So I guess we'll be testing the school out.

My husband spoke to a friend who still lives in the area and he sent their kids to Wilkinson instead (English stream). However, I believe Wilkinson is now closed for optional attendance so more families are actually having to go to Blake.
 
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