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The election drums are beating again...

  • Thread starter Unknown </username> <dateline>1118788320</date
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"I expected more from the Urban Toronto Forum than the clueless idiots from the Outer Canadas."

I think that was a direct attack on our forum administrator, who hails from Sudbury. Guess folks who aren't originally from Toronto can't care about this city according to AGathering.
 
AGathering, just a reminder. When you post at that incredible length, it leaves me thinking of those zealot/kooky websites which consist of one loooooong slow-download continuous scroll sans rhyme or reason. You may have some useful points. But you come across as, like, nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...
 
unimaginative2:

A Gathering... The federal government isn't taking any money from the provincial government! The province collects its own revenue and pays its own bills. It's not like there's some big line item in the provincial budget called "Transfers to other leeching provinces" that is causing the deficit. If our taxes were as high as Quebec's or BC's, we could pay for all the services we want. They aren't, so we can't.

Yes they are and if you care to go over the facts again I'll be happy to post them. Ontario has higher taxes than B.C. and is right up there with Quebec. It's right in this thread and comes from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation with a link to quite a lot of documentation.

Have you missed, wherever you're from, the $23 billion "fiscal gap" between Ontario and the confederate feds? Do you have a clue what it means?

For Urban Toronto it means quite a lot more than it does to the rest of the Ontarios given that it paid out $11 billion of the $23 billion "fiscal gap" Ontario has with the other 9 provinces.

You see, we pay out taxes such as GST, income, corporate taxes to the feds. Directly. Then the feds decide what they're going to do with our money.

If you can't understand that over $2,000 per capita of our own money is being paid to the NL government over the latest confederate fisaso then you understand nothing and never will.

And what else were the spoiled brats in NL handed over the flag flapping of its premier and 7 MP's? I've already addressed it as has every newspaper and MP in the country. Other than NL and NS MP's of course.

And it's not like Ontario has 106 MP's and over 40% of the GDP of the Canadas. It could certainly never pull off shit like every other province has gotten away with since "confederation" with all of their socialist bitching and moaning.

Do you think that the feds have geese laying golden eggs under magical money trees? They do. It's called South Ontario.

Do you think that the Ontario feds (it's what we all call them in Toronto so wherever you're from I have no clue or care ... and learn even if you're from some Ditchville in the Ontarios) collect all of their revenues equally and pay everything back equally? So why has the City of Toronto pai out $11 billion in taxes never to be seen again while this "Ontario" thing, as claimed by McGuinty, has only paid out $23 billion in taxes to the confederate feds never to be seen again? Last year.

Once again:

Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, 2001

Ontario Section
10,706,513 93% of Ontario's population

Quebec Section
6,327,354 87% of Quebec's population

Total Population
17,033,867 57% of Canada's population

Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census

Does that tell you anything about "Ontario" let alone this "federation"? Do a few years of research and get back to me when you have a clue.

Look...what province has 90% of federal jobs? Ontario. I think it's a pretty fair trade.

Got a source for that? And what the hell is "Ontario?"

5. Fix this little-known injustice: The federal government invests $750 million a year on 40 National Research Council facilities (such as labs).

The GTA does 30 per cent of the country's science research, yet has zero national science facilities. None.

Ottawa has 14, Vancouver three, Calgary, Halifax and Montreal have two each.

Charlottetown, Longueuil, Edmonton, Gatineau, Moncton, Regina and 11 other cities have one each.

Don't even get me started or the word counters will have to pronounce their oh so useful findings. This is the Ontario economy. And in a horrible year where Urban Toronto was nailed by SARS and a 5-6 day/night power outage.

fact02_1big.gif


And look. What province has to pay the expenses of having the entire federal government sitting on its land? It's all the more reason to dump the worthless idiots and have our own government for South Ontario. Paying for 90% (if it's true and I doubt it) of "government jobs" to rip us off and hand out more of our own taxes to every other jurisdiction than we get back ourselves, if you're any "we" is a slap in the face. Who the hell do you think pays for them all? Whose infrastructure is used by them all? "Queen's" Park can move to North Bay and confederate mound can move to Winnipeg where it belongs.

Not in South Ontario. And we're now supposed to apologize for the expenses the Brits dumped and keep dumping on us?

I don't want the feds period and don't know anyone in Toronto who does. Or "Queen's" Park. All they do is pillage taxes to buy votes in the rest of the Ontarios and Canadas.

Do you know what piillage taxes means? It means that, oh, Toronto for example generates the bulk of the taxes for the entire country. And the bulk of the taxes for the Ontarios.

Provincial and federal taxes are paid out but are never returned (given the socialist mess of this "federation" and that nothing else has economies worth mentioning) but are instead handed to others by the provincial and confederate feds.

And you go talk to some people in Ottawa to see how much they love the jobs that ALL OF THE CANADAS gets that happen to end up in Ottawa, because it happens to be where the feds park their fat asses. They are not "Ontario" jjobs. They are jobs that happen to be in Ontario because that's how this country started and it's how the Brits or yore decided to set things up. But all they do is clog up and wear down the infrastructure of Ottawa and kicking their asses to where they belong, if anywhere, Winnipeg is about dead center of the Canadas and outside Ontario, they have no business being in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor at all and will not be here for long, then they can go use up Winnipeg's infrastructure and Winnipegers can see how much they get out of the deal. They already get a hell of a lot more per capita than the Ontarios do. They're right up there with the Atlantic Canadas.

"Federal" Transfers
2004-05 estimates sorted from the highest, per person, to the lowest


$ per Person / % of Provincial Revenues
NUNAVAT TERRITORY ..... $25,975 / 88%
NORTHWEST TERRITORIES . $16,633 / 78%
YUKON TERRITORY ....... $15,727 / 76%
PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND .. $ 2,930 / 39%
NEW BRUNSWICK ......... $ 2,739 / 36%
NOVA SCOTIA ........... $ 2,455 / 39%
NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR $ 2,449 / 32%
MANITOBA .............. $ 2,428 / 38%
QUEBEC ................ $ 1,757 / 25%
BRITISH COLUMBIA ...... $ 1,383 / 18%
ONTARIO ............... $ 1,322 / 21%
SASKATCHEWAN .......... $ 1,332 / 20%
ALBERTA ............... $ 1,321 / 16%

Source: http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/mtpe.html#Newfoundland (scroll down for all jurisdictions; scroll up for an explanation of what transfer payments are and how they don't work and never have)

Pittances of tax returns for "Ontario" and "Quebec." I did mention this:

Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, 2001

Ontario Section
10,706,513 93% of Ontario's population

Quebec Section
6,327,354 87% of Quebec's population

Total Population
17,033,867 57% of Canada's population

Source: Statistics Canada 2001 Census
 
And those with the power paying the taxes might decide the opposite: that the "baby boomers" are from another planet, have no clue about global competition because they never had to deal with it, are worthless expenses to healthcare, spent natural resources like an old mining town, and that they simply can't afford to pay for baby boomers to live to 100+ years-old for no apparent reason.

A mandatory death age of 70 is more than generous. Just no CPP or health coverage, like the private universities. Pay as you go. If you can. We have more important priorities than keeping worthless retired people alive on our taxes.

On the other hand, if they go to private universities and pay their bills to become useful again, they should be allowed to get CPP and healthcare coverage after age 70. If they can get jobs anywhere and pay taxes again.

I'd say that's pretty fringe.

A Gathering: Why do you use the word confederate whenever you refer to the federal government? What do you think it means?

For someone that likes to attack everyone else's knowledge of "the issues," you don't seem to grasp that the federal government isn't taking a dime away from the provincial government. You may want to demand a tax cut from the feds because you don't want to pay for programs and transfers that cover the whole country (and I'm sure you would), but the province's revenues and expenditures are entirely their own business.
 
"I expected more from the Urban Toronto Forum than the clueless idiots from the Outer Canadas."

I think that was a direct attack on our forum administrator, who hails from Sudbury. Guess folks who aren't originally from Toronto can't care about this city according to AGathering.

I think you're grasping at straws and have no clue what Urban Toronto even is. No one here cares if someone is from Uganda let alone Sudbury. It's the most multicultural city on the planet.

Have you ever met a Chinaman with a Pakistani (Punjabi) accent?

Who would notice someone from Sudbury in Toronto? Everyone is welcome in Toronto. Do they have tatoos on their foreheads or something? "I am Subdury!" You're demeaning the admin, and Toronto, not I.

What is with all of you people presuming to know a thing about Urban Toronto? A Hundu African-Brazilion born in Korea could have set the site up and it'd fit Toronto just fine.

But avoiding every single point made to try to come up with distractions of the facts isn't going to work.

"You think." You don't think, because you don't know. It'd be a bit odd if someone still living in Sudbury, who had never even been to Urban Toronto were the admin, as much as it would be for someone to set up an Urban Calgary Forum from Lethbridge. But it's not the case so who cares? Have you missed all of the graphics on the site? That's a lot of work and I haven't seen a graphic of Sudbury yet.

Have you noticed the layout of the site? It's Urban Toronto. It'd be interesting to see the talents put into this site in other cities, including Sudbury. But I didn't name the forum and as I said, there are plenty of sites around for Ontario and general Canadian issues and North American issues and so on.

It's not some "moderation" I just have no clue why anyone but people from Urban Toronto would want to be on this site. Toronto has nothing of its own and it'd be nice to have a web site where Urban Toronto, not the GTA, not "Ontario" not the Canadas, not the Iraq war, I haven't stumbled across the SSM (same-sex marriage) thread of the world as yet, as on every other forum in North America. And the "legalization" of pot and abortion.

They're issues for Urban Toronto. The first two, of late, started in Urban Toronto. I can find the opinions of others by taping CPAC or going to any number of other sites. Understand? "Toronto's" media is not Toronto's. Over a third of the population of the Canads lives within the direct marketing range of Toronto, so we don't even get our own news. Urban Toronto->Politics means just that.

And if you "cared about the city" then you might address some of the facts around it and even know some of them instead of acting like an Outer Canadian.

It means not knowing that most people in Toronto don't know (or don't care) how much they're hated by the rest of this country due to total ignorance on their part. It means making assumptions such as you did.

And if you care so much, then perhaps address the facts. And if you're not from Urban Toronto then tell us your facts. But why on the Urban Toronto Forum?

You couldn't possibly have missed the point more around Toronto, trying to proclaim that if someone in Urban Toronto, and i can tell by the layout of the site that the admin(s) are quite clued in about Toronto, that it matters where someone happens to be from in this city.

It does matter where people are from in Toronto, as far as making life a lot more interesting. But that's it. And if you don't understand that then you don't understand Toronto. And even if you're living in Mississauga it's no big surprise.

So what do you think about raising municipal taxes, TTC fare again, while the City of Toronto paid out $11 billion in taxes never to be seen again last year?

What about the Ontario feds parked in downtown Toronto on prime real estae we could be making money from, with this $23 billion "fiscal imbalances?" No opinion? No care in the world? We should raise taxes and cut even more services?

What should we cut? What's left to cut? And why don't "we" if there is a we on this site, just get more of our own taxes back from the Ontario and confederated feds?

That's the issue. Not where people in the most multicultural city on the planet happen to be from or why the richest anything in the Canadas can't even keep its streets in decent repair, or anything else.

You're either with us or against us. And I don't give a crap where you happen to be from.
 
I think this says it all:

We have more important priorities than keeping worthless retired people alive on our taxes.

Oh, do explain "it all." The guy in the straitjacket isn't even a baby boomer out to privatize post-secondary schools, in South Ontario, like they need even higher tuitions, cut the healthcare of non-baby boomers and turn all of our money over to ma and pa or grandpa and grandma who are the backbones of the economy.

Or maybe the dude is in a straitjacket contemplating the original post.
 
Adma:

AGathering, just a reminder. When you post at that incredible length, it leaves me thinking of those zealot/kooky websites which consist of one loooooong slow-download continuous scroll sans rhyme or reason. You may have some useful points. But you come across as, like, nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...

Uh huh. The TTC is "way out on the fringe" too. The 400,000+ letters sent to every Toronto MPP, McGuinty, Mills (at the time), Volpe, every Toronto MP, Martin in the Toronto Trade Board's "Enough of Not Enough" (of our own taxes back) all of those 400,000+ Torontonians were koo-koo. And the Toronto Board of Trade of course for reporting that $9 billion of the revenues generated in Toronto disappeared, never to be seen again. And they had the cooperation of everything in Toronto that matters, Toronto city hall opened its books, but who the hell cares about $9 billion and over 400,000 letters burying MPP's and MP's (etc.) alive in a couple of months before the 2003-04 budgets to try to get more of Toronto's own taxes back to Toronto?

Fringe nutcases along with every CEO in Toronto who matters and they've got an organization set up. Koo-koos. What the hell would they know about business, the decline of the infrastructure they depend upon in Toronto?

The only nutcases left are the ones like you who try to deny it all. And you're going to be overwhelmed and how you've managed to escape it so far ... well you come across as, like, nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...

Perhaps you should learn how to read. I type 130 WPM and it's no skin of my ass if others can't read or even be bothered to watch the political and economic newz on the teevee.

We know that people in Toronto let alone South Ontario are like, nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe... due to total ignorance. But that's what marketing is for.

Impaired driving used to be acceptable and it's what South Ontario is up to in this "federation." It will become unacceptable and one woman who lost her kid due to a drunken idiot driving isn't quite what we're dealing with.

The main problem is avoiding riots and murders if the marketing goes too fast ... to educate you poor, like, nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...slobs who think that drunk driving is just fine. Because you don't know any better. But I can assure you that you will.

Or not. It's the usual downfall of democracy. Nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe... morons without a clue in the world.

So what's your solution to "Ontario's" fiscal high-wire act? Why is it even dealing with it? Or are you one of the many critics on this site with no ideas and no clue how to get an idea?

It's nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...for South Ontario to be paying out more taxes, determined by the confederate feds, to every jurisdiction in the "federation" more money per capita than it has to spend on itself.

It's nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe... for the feds, "McGuinty's Liberal cousins" not to even agree to meet with the premier of Ontario, over a puny $5 billion out of $23 billion paid out by "Ontario" taxpayers, when they just handed almost $3 billion to NL and NS; when Ontario paid for it.

It's nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe... for the NL government, due to handout (complements of the confederate feds; for 7 seats and -2% of the GDP of the Canadas) to do the above and make Ontario taxpayers pay over $2,000 more per capita to the NL government (in equalization welfare handouts they shouldn't be getting) than the Ontario government has per capita to spend on Ontario's "fiscal high-wire act."

It's nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe... to assume that a question of "how to solve this mess" can be answered in a soundbyte, jingle or even song and dance.

So what's your big plan? Nothing nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe... Go clean up garbage (you are from Urban Toronto?) on the 23rd and 24th and tell me why you even pay municipal taxes. Slave.

Or are you just going to sit at home in some nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...kinda thing, not cleaning up garbage in Toronto so that you don't have to think/wonder what you pay municipal taxes for let alone provincial or federal taxes?

Why not give me a nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...breakdown of what, oh, just the PST, GST, driver's licence renewals are up, it's a tax, Ontario federal, license plate renewal and just personal federal income taxes are for in Urban Toronto? You do pay taxes?

So what has the $900/year you and all of your friends done for your healthcare in Toronto? Nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe...?

Or maybe you don't pay any taxes and that's why you don't understand anything.

I have to pay for an accountant to keep me under a specific level of taxation in Ontario (the feds are far more generous) , turn down work, or I work for nothing and pay more in taxes.

How about you? You don't care about taxes obviously, so you probably pay none. But even "workfare" cases have to pay "Ontario" and confedrate taxes in PST and GST. So what do you get out of them? Or do you have tips on where to go to avoid paying even those taxes?

And how do you manage to get past Ontario Works in Toronto? In Peterborough and the like, there aren't many jobs so it's not difficult. But how do you manage it in Toronto?

Nutso. Koo-koo. Way out on the fringe... tips on how to avoid paying taxes in Toronto would be useful information. So how do you do it?

Prison? Asylum? Or maybe you skipped your way through life before "global trade" was even a term that existed, causing free trade zones, got a job with Ontario Hydro through your uncle with a grade 9 education and are retired with a big fat pension that real taxpayers in Toronto are all paying for.

You have to have some secret. Ignorance is the usual. And reading will cure that. If you're from Toronto. An if not, what are you doing on this forum? Urban Toronto Forum->Political? But you know nothing about the tax looting of Toronto?

So you're an immigrant. When did you show up? A month ago? And you think you know something about Toronto?

How much did the City of Toronto generate in taxes last year, paid out to the Ontario and confederate feds, never to be seen again? How about B.C.? What about Alberta? Provinces, not cities. And the #3 and #4 economies in the Canadas behind Ontario and Quebec.

You can learn. And will learn. Or head to www.IgnoranceIsBliss.ca. The NDP run it.
 
Haha... you can always rely on adma.

Well here's something interesting. I guess they figure now's a pretty good time:

Ottawa, Ontario poised for deal


SUSAN DELACOURT
IN OTTAWA

Ottawa and the Ontario government are poised to end their feud over Premier Dalton McGuinty's demand for $5 billion in federal funding, the Toronto Star has learned.

Immigration Minister Joe Volpe, Prime Minister Paul Martin's Ontario lieutenant, and provincial Finance Minister Greg Sorbara met yesterday for two hours to get the strained relations between the two governments back on track. They have reached an accord on nine specific issues, sources say.

While the federal Liberals are still not ready to hand over a cheque for $5 billion  as Sorbara and McGuinty have demanded  the province appears to have won significant concessions from Ottawa.

"We're pleased the federal government is starting to acknowledge that there's a $23 billion gap," said a McGuinty official, referring to the difference between what Ontarians send Ottawa and is returned to the province in the form of transfer payments. "We want to work with the federal government to reduce that gap," the source said.

Tentative deals were reached on:

A long-delayed agreement with Queen's Park on money for resettling immigrants. The deal is nearing completion and awaits only the final approval of Paul Martin's cabinet. Ottawa currently gives Quebec $3,806 per immigrant for settlement services while Ontario receives $819 for each new arrival. This, despite the fact Ontario has welcomed 57 per cent of immigrants to Canada over the past three years.

A labour-market agreement that Sorbara has long been demanding. Ontario is the only province not to have signed such a deal with Ottawa, which ensures more federal funding for workforce programs.

Sharing of responsibilities for the collection of corporate tax.

An arrangement helping Ontario comply with Kyoto accord targets on greenhouse gas emissions.

Increased co-operation on border infrastructure, especially at key points such as Windsor, Sarnia and Sault Ste. Marie.

Greater co-operation on Greater Toronto Area infrastructure, especially regarding mass transit. Sorbara has been seeking a larger federal role in tackling the unique transit challenges in the GTA.

Working together on an East-West power grid to reduce the likelihood of Ontario being hit by another blackout like the one that crippled the province in August, 2003. Future co-ordination of a Service Ontario system, which delivers some government services such as licence renewals through automated electronic kiosks, with the new Service Canada operation.

Giving Ontario full per-capita funding of the Canada Health and Social Transfer.

The moves come as the Martin administration, already in a tailspin over the sponsorship scandal, scrambles to protect its flank in Ontario, home to 74 of the minority government's 134 seats.

Last week, McGuinty had a cordial conversation with Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, who has pledged to help the province secure a better funding deal from Ottawa.

Harper, buoyed by his surging poll numbers, meets today with Ontario Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory.

"No more of this nonsense," said Volpe, denying that the decision to make peace with the provincial Liberals was spurred by Harper's intervention.

Still, he left no doubt that he thought it unwise for McGuinty to forge an alliance with Harper, who he accused of being more interested in aligning himself with Quebec separatists like Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe.

"The Harper-Duceppe alliance, or the potential of it, is not something that we want to deter the future of the federation," he said.

To tone down the rhetoric war that has raged for weeks between McGuinty and Ottawa, Volpe drove to Sorbara's York Region home yesterday and spent the afternoon hammering out resolutions to nine outstanding disputes.

Volpe emphasized that he and Sorbara agreed that nothing would be served by attempting to reshuffle the foundation of Canada's wealth-sharing arrangement with any kind of one-off payment to Ontario.

"The issue of fiscal federalism, or rewriting the issue of fiscal federalism, is not on the table," Volpe said, noting "the rhetoric had gone beyond what was helpful. Ontario recognizes that nobody is interested in putting a price tag on Confederation."

He added that a meeting between the 15 federal ministers and McGuinty's cabinet would be held in "three to four weeks" and these nine points will be the basis of the discussion. Major announcements are expected after that meeting.

McGuinty's crusade to reduce the $23 billion gap, which has grown from $2 billion in 1995, was sparked by the Prime Minister's controversial Jan. 28 side deal with Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams and Nova Scotia Premier John Hamm reached Jan. 28.

Under the accord on offshore oil revenue, Newfoundland received an immediate $2 billion from Ottawa and Nova Scotia $830 million. Both will have the ability for the next eight years to keep all offshore oil revenues, which had previously been clawed back under the nationwide wealth-sharing equalization program among the provinces. That arrangement in effect costs Ontario more money because it and Alberta bankroll equalization to the "have-not" provinces. McGuinty, whose government is running a $6 billion deficit, has said a $5 billion cash infusion would go toward closing the gap.

Legal Notice: Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. All rights reserved. Distribution, transmission or republication of any material from www.thestar.com is strictly prohibited without the prior written permission of Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. For information please contact us using our webmaster form. www.thestar.com online since 1996.
 
Re: Ahem, hint-hint

Oooh...well it's heating up.

Apr. 11, 2005. 07:44 AM

Tory leader Stephen Harper would become prime minister if a vote were held today, according to Star poll results.
Conservatives surge ahead
Liberals in freefall after devastating Gomery testimony


SUSAN DELACOURT AND ROBERT BENZIE
OTTAWA AND TORONTO

OTTAWA - Conservative Leader Stephen Harper would become prime minister if an election were held today, according to a new Toronto Star poll.

The poll, conducted by EKOS Research Associates, shows the federal Liberals are in a dramatic freefall, even in their usual Ontario stronghold.

EKOS surveyed Canadians immediately following the release of devastating testimony last Thursday by former Montreal ad executive Jean Brault at the inquiry looking into the federal government's sponsorship scandal. Brault alleged gross misconduct in the Quebec wing of the federal Liberal party.

The pollster found that only 25 per cent of respondents nationwide would vote today for the Liberals, compared to 36.2 per cent for the Conservatives. The Liberals won a minority government with about 37 per cent of the vote in June 2004.

In Ontario, the Conservatives now lead with 40 per cent of the vote. The Liberals are at 33 per cent. Prime Minister Paul Martin escaped the indignity of losing the government last year when the party won 74 of the 106 seats in Ontario.

It's not just the sponsorship revelations dragging the federal Liberals down in Canada's biggest province, but also the so-called "fair-share" campaign that has pitted Premier Dalton McGuinty's provincial government against Martin's Liberals.

According to Frank Graves, president of EKOS, last week's scandal revelations only "lit the fuse, igniting resentment over fair-share treatment and ultimately producing a Liberal implosion in Ontario."

EKOS surveyed 1,125 Canadians, 18 years and older, between Thursday and Saturday.

Results from a survey of that size are considered accurate to within 2.9 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

The national results gave the NDP 20.5 per cent of the vote; the Bloc Québécois, running in Quebec only, 12.6 per cent and the Green party 5 per cent.

Standings in the 308-seat House of Commons today are Liberals 133, Conservatives 99, Bloc 54 and NDP 19. There are two independents and one vacancy.

The results suggest the possibility of a spring election, although the opposition parties likely do not want to defeat the government until after the British Columbia election on May 17 and the visit by the Queen to Canada in late May.

And testimony at the sponsorship inquiry, headed by Justice John Gomery, also ends in late May.

For the Liberals, 25 per cent nationally represents a significant drop  15 percentage points lower than they received in EKOS' last poll in February and 11 percentage points lower than the popular vote they gained in last June's federal election.

For the Tories, it's a 10-point climb since the February poll and seven percentage points higher than the 2004 popular vote nationwide.

Graves calls it "a breathtaking shift in what had been a stagnant and listless political landscape"  a shift, which seems to have taken place since Brault rocked the political world late last week with tales of forced kickbacks and payoffs to the Liberal party.

Those revelations, coming in a flood after a publication ban was lifted by Gomery last Thursday, have created an almost perfect climate for the Conservatives to form a minority government, the poll shows.

Graves said "there is little sense of any huge affection for the Conservatives, with voters caught between anger at the Liberals and only tepid enthusiasm for the only serious contender to form a government."

Though Harper and his Tories have been saying they will take their time to assess the scandal fallout and not be pushed by an election-eager Bloc Québécois, this new poll shows that temptation will be running high for the opposition to seize upon the mood quickly and bring down the shaky Liberal minority government.

"In the current volatile landscape, if there is to be another federal election in the near future, voters will likely consider where the broader electorate is before deciding where to throw their support," Graves said.

"I suspect most still prefer a minority government, but this time of a different political stripe."

The only obstacle to a snap spring vote, however, is that the poll also shows a high number of Canadians opposed to calling an election on the integrity issue.

A full 62 per cent of those polled thought an election shouldn't take place until a report is issued from Gomery later this year and another 21 per cent said the integrity issue wasn't important enough to provoke an election.

Only 15 per cent said an election would be a good idea, "to clear the air."

Martin has not yet issued any public statements in reply to last week's developments at the sponsorship inquiry.

This morning, he makes a brief appearance on the subject of medical waiting times and then he will be in the Commons to face the opposition during Question Period.

In Rome for the Pope's funeral when the news hit the stands last week, Martin has pointedly avoided reporters' queries and remained huddled out of public view all weekend.

Harper too, also in Rome for Friday's papal funeral, has taken a similar tack, though he did show up at a rally on Parliament Hill against same-sex marriage over the weekend.

His advisers are presumably also seeing internal polling showing a surge in Ontario, which raises some questions about why the Conservative leader would choose this timing to underline a stand that has not traditionally been popular in urban Ontario, where the party needs the votes.

But there's more bad news for Liberals in the poll on this front. By a ratio of two-to-one, Canadians are more likely to see Martin as part of the problem than as part of the solution to the sponsorship mess, the EKOS/Star poll shows.

A full 60 per cent of respondents said they saw the Prime Minister as "an essential part of the Liberal government since 1993 and now, as leader of the Liberal party, should be held accountable for the sponsorship mess."

Less than half that amount  29 per cent  said Martin "had little to do with the sponsorship mess and deserves credit for calling the inquiry."

Liberals are now trailing in every region of the country, especially in Quebec and British Columbia, where the poll shows the party under threat of obliteration.

In Quebec, the Liberals have just 15 per cent support; in Alberta, only 10 per cent.

These were the types of low, low numbers that former prime minister Brian Mulroney's Conservative government received in polls in the months before it was dumped from office in 1993 and reduced to just two seats in the Commons.

When EKOS asked respondents to characterize their view of this current sponsorship controversy, more than a third  34 per cent  called it "the worst government scandal that I can recall."

Only slightly more, 37 per cent, called it "no worse than other government scandals," reflecting what could be widespread cynicism with politics overall.

Another 22 per cent said this current scandal is worse than other government scandals, but not the worst they could recall. Only 4 per cent called it "not a particularly bad problem."

Gomery is probing all aspects of the $250-million sponsorship program, which funnelled $100 million to Liberal-friendly ad agencies, who often did little or no work.

The poll also shows that Canadians believe social issues, not "ethics and accountability," are by far the most important things going into the next election.

Least important are "fiscal issues," the poll showed.

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Oh and this is doubly interesting! Foreign Minister Stockwell Day... Hmm...

Apr. 11, 2005. 01:00 AM

Familiar faces are sure bet for Tory cabinet
Stronach, Day, MacKay on list Harper likely

to recruit `stars'


TONDA MACCHARLES
OTTAWA BUREAU

OTTAWAâ€â€A Conservative government is something that seemed within reach of Stephen Harper about halfway through the 2004 campaign, not weeks or months in advance of it. Then, Harper's own musings about seizing the reins of power seemed premature to some and drove speculation about who would be in his cabinet.

Last week, Harper said, "I intend to become prime minister of this country. I intend to lead a national government."

So just who would be in a Harper cabinet? Some obvious choices, like MP John Reynolds, have said they won't run again. And a lot would depend on what "stars" Harper could recruit.

Here are some of the obvious choices based on Harper's current front-bench line-up.

Peter MacKay: Now deputy leader, MacKay, the former PC leader, proved at the March convention he has consolidated quite a bit of support within the party. He is the party's national security critic, and is a possible contender for a job like deputy prime minister.

Rona Ambrose: Smart and quick on her toes, the rookie MP for Edmonton-Spruce Grove has shone under Harper during this session. She is the party's intergovernmental affairs critic, having worked as an advisor to Alberta Premier Ralph Klein on the file. Ambrose gets starring roles in Question Period. She is the lead on the "fiscal imbalance" file. Harper trusts her and would likely reward her with a high-profile cabinet position.

Monte Solberg: Long-time Alberta MP Solberg was re-named finance critic by Harper, and always proves to be an effective questioner of the government, injecting humour and biting criticisms into his performances. A liked and trusted colleague, Solberg is a possible choice for Harper's finance minister.

Belinda Stronach: Runner-up to Harper in the leadership contest, Stronach would bring glamour to the Tory cabinet, as well as business experience. But Harper is not likely to cede much of the spotlight to someone who is a social moderate and seen as a future leadership rival. However, Stronach is the only GTA MP elected in the last Liberal sweep of Ontario, and has shown public loyalty to Harper.

Vic Toews: A former Manitoba labour minister and attorney general under Gary Filmon's Progressive Conservatives, Toews is now the federal party's justice critic. Harper frequently quotes his arguments on law-and-order issues and especially on same-sex marriage. James Rajotte: The 34-year-old Alberta MP, elected in the 2000 campaign, is Conservative industry critic. Rajotte is a calm, likeable ally of Harper who was his caucus liaison through the leadership race. He would be happy with the industry portfolio.

Josée Verner: She is the party's likely only shot at a seat in the province of Quebec. Verner came close in her Quebec City area riding last time, and since then has been Harper's key Quebec lieutenant. She sits in on caucus, though not an elected MP, and is trusted by Harper.

Stockwell Day: Although the Canadian Alliance dumped him as leader after a disastrous tenure at the helm, Harper has embraced Day as his foreign affairs critic and he retains the position after several shadow cabinet shuffles, all of which could suggest the leader would peg him for the foreign affairs minister's job.

James Moore: A young British Columbia MP, Moore is a social moderate, and one of just four in the Conservative caucus who will likely support same-sex marriage in this week's vote.

Rahim Jaffer or Bev Oda: Both visible minority MPs are also proving to be liked by the leader, and could flesh out the diversity of a Harper cabinet.
 
Foreign Minister Stockwell Day? That's enough to make people think twice about voting Conservative. That guy's a kook, and I certainly wouldn't trust him to say anything in the Middle East, though the US would love him.

And of course, who could forget Rahim Jaffer's radio 'appearance'?
 
"We have more important priorities than keeping worthless retired people alive on our taxes."

Are proposing a Logan's Run type of society?
 
Hmm... if an election is called soon there will be some intereting voting strategies across the country.

Sure some members of the Liberal party are crooks... but a Harper government. Eh?

I know my riding is going Liberal, there's no challenge there, so I feel comfortable voting my conscience and going Green.
 

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