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Suddenly...Windmills! Millions of them!

Eug said:
If you're talking about the Toronto Hydro one, IMO this is a "LOOK AT ME I'M FAKIN' IT GREEN" initiative. There was a provincially commissioned study completed by Helimax in 2008 looking at potential offshore sites in Ontario that would be feasible for wind farms. The proposed area by Toronto Hydro was not one of them. Yet, Toronto Hydro wants it there. One can only conclude it's because Toronto Hydro doesn't have access to the other provincial sites, and doesn't want to miss out on the PR of being pseudo-green. Your tax dollars at work...
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Here we go:

Helimax2.jpg
 
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Eug said:
Yes there is. It's a waste of money if not appropriate for the location, and in some areas they can be an eyesore and can generate unwanted noise.
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They're not an eyesore, that's the whole point I made in the original post, and noise? Where the hell do you think they will be installed? Someone's back yard? People here have already pointed out that the amount of noise a turbine creates is quite minor, especially when there's nobody around to even hear it. Compared to some of the things this city spends money on, a turbine isn't such a terrible investment, and like I already said, it's about making appeal. Yes, sometimes that's very important.

IMO this is a "LOOK AT ME I'M MAKING A POST" post.
 
Ervin said:
They're not an eyesore, that's the whole point I made in the original post, and noise? Where the hell do you think they will be installed? Someone's back yard? People here have already pointed out that the amount of noise a turbine creates is quite minor, especially when there's nobody around to even hear it. Compared to some of the things this city spends money on, a turbine isn't such a terrible investment, and like I already said, it's about making appeal. Yes, sometimes that's very important.
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So, basically your argument is that the City of Toronto wastes money on so many other things, they may as well waste money on dubious pseudo-green wind energy projects as well. This is exactly the misguided approach I was talking about.

BTW, I say this as someone who actually had skin in the wind energy game. ie. I'm more than willing to invest my own hard earned cash or my tax dollars in stuff like this... when it makes sense. And what I mean by "makes sense" is when feasibility studies actually show high wind generation potential and reasonable cost. However, I don't want to have my tax dollars mis-spent on inappropriate and wasteful pet projects like you're suggesting.
 
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I wouldn't want this to happen in an urban setting.

[video=youtube;7nSB1SdVHqQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nSB1SdVHqQ[/video]
 
Windmills look great when there is a few standing together, I will never forget my first time seeing them.....it was like seeing a UFO :D Here is a photo of a wind farm close to Pincher Creek, AB - you have to look closely to see them.
 

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I have driven through many windmill fields in Ontario. The largest single one that I know of is to the west and northwest of Shelburne, along Highways 89 and 10 on the other side from Toronto. With another mod on a short road trip, we stopped the car on a county road between 89 and 10 surrounded by several windmills going at a good clip. I turned off the engine and rolled down the windmills. Hardly a woosh was heard. I've done the same thing in the vast windmill fields near Bruce Nuclear off Lake Huron. Nothing there either.

A generalized statement, but while the the Bruce-Grey-Huron area is solidly Conservative Blue, they're also more environmentally aware and "live and let live" types uninterested in right-wing wedge issues, unlike the rural regions in, say, Lanark County or rural "Carleton County". The Green Party, a conservative, but environmentally aware party, does best in that part of Ontario that starts in rural Caledon and extends north and west. They've had little problem with the windmills.
 
What is a wind turbine? Simply put, its an electric motor in reverse.

We had our furnace replaced last year, which included a new fan. With the old fan, we heard it blow air, even on the top floor of our house. With the new (more powerful) fan, there is no noise. We now have the fan always on, to keep the same temperature even throughout the house, and are not bothered by the noise.

I remember having fans that were noisy. Today, most fans are quiet. And they will generate electricity is the wind is strong enough, not a lot, but measurable.
 
Jimbits said:
Toronto Hydro Energy Services is constructing an anemometer in the lake:

http://www.torontohydroenergy.com/generation_offshore.html

But one should note from the web page:
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I love Windmills. I just wish people were more open to the idea and not believe that windmills far away from you will harm you. *cough* http://www.savethebluffs.ca & http://www.savethetorontobluffs.com *cough*. Installing an little anemometer (barely visible to the eye since it was so far away from the shore line) was challenged by residents.

If you go to the first website and check out the health/safety links most "specialists" and "experts" will acknowledge that a safe distance would be 1.5km to 2 km away from residences. The actualy proposal is cited on the other website>> "Toronto Hydro and their consultant Gartner Lee is considering the feasibility of putting an industrial wind farm 2 to 4 kilometres off Toronto's eastern shore. If wind speeds prove favourable, the proposed plan would see 400+ foot wind turbines, with flashing beacons in Lake Ontario. "

I personally think a windmill farm is beautiful. And I understand that many do not like them for aesthetic reasons, however they are quite beneficial. I hate to say it, but this is how I feel, the NIMBYs in this area are worried that offshore windmills are going to decrease their property values. There! I said it!
 
Dunno if it will decrease property values. It might, but I'm not convinced either way. I wouldn't be surprised if property values stayed the same, or if they did drop, they didn't drop a large amount. However, the more important issue here is that bluffs area is not a particularly high wind area, but construction in that area will be high cost compared to conventional land-based wind farms.

So even if we ignore the human proximity factor, it's already got too significant strikes against it. From a financial standpoint, it makes a heluvalot more sense to build elsewhere, where wind speeds are known to be higher (other off-shore sites in Ontario), or where construction costs are lower (other land-based sites).

However, as I said before, Toronto Hydro has no access to these other more suitable sites, and therefore is trying to shoehorn this location to its PR needs.

I just don't understand it. When it comes to government spending, the public is often on their backs about every little thing. However, if you slap the word "green" on something, basic stuff like ROI becomes absolutely irrelevant to a good chunk of the public, even when other more suitable green projects aren't funded.
 
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I'm generally with you but doesn't PR and proximity have value too? Everything can't just be based on effectiveness and efficiency. That is where engineers (formerly such as myself) have it all wrong. People need to not only know and imagine they also need to feel and sense things. Sure put the bulk of power generation off in the middle of nowhere but put some of it right here in our faces. Central power generation is necessary but it is also part of the problem. The notion of having power generation and storage integrated into our settlements and de-centralized I think is important conceptually. Yes we will likely always rely on centralized infrastructure but I think the future is a mixed system of central and decentralized production.
 
i'm all for green energy and the like.

but i hate that wind mill at exhibition. well, what i hate is how when you look west through the princess gates - you see the windmill smack dab in the middle.

the city should do more to preserve the few vistas that we have. this link doesn't give my point justice.. but..
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Toronto&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=42.400757,113.818359&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario&ll=43.634821,-79.409232&spn=0.000726,0.001737&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=43.634857,-79.409102&panoid=Ej61Xdb7HOQevdYzaCffIw&cbp=12,240.87,,0,7.15
 
I don't mind the aesthetics of that particular windmill location either, specifically because it doesn't fight with any of the skyline or natural beauty IMO. It does seem rather odd though to just build one. ie. Symbolism here was more of a concern than efficiency, as someone was mentioning earlier. Didn't I hear mention before it was supposed to be 3, or is that just a rumour?
 
Well, I also seem to recall Jack Layton boasting it with pride back when he was bidding for the NDP leadership in '03. (The convention which happened right here in the National Trade Centre, conveniently enough.)
 
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