Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[adrianaliu]

i dont think the city centre will need a heavy rail line anytime soon but if i were to choose whether to extend line 2 or build RER tunnel i would choose a subway. it would provide better service and might end up costing less

 

[rbt]

... but if i were to choose whether to extend line 2 or build RER tunnel i would choose a subway. it would provide better service ...

There's no reason to believe TTC would run subsidized service to Mississauga. York Region will likely see 6 minute frequencies at the best of times on the outer portion of the Spadina extension. Any kind of TTC cost cutting will target that section first as voters from Vaughan aren't going to have any influence over Toronto City Council; nor will voters in Mississauga. Unless Mississauga has very high ridership, TTC would inevitably turn back trains near the border.

If you somehow get Metrolinx to take over TTC services; you'll have the exact same people running the exact same numbers on both Metro and RER operations.

Mississauga council, not being in control of either system, could opt to subsidize either system equally with similar results given nearly equal operations costs (SOGR inspections, fare collection, cleaning, driving, etc. are all the same).

I wouldn't be surprised if those Vaughan stations in 2024 have fully automated entrances (maybe 1 staff between all stations to monitor) and 15 minute rush-hour subway frequencies. Every TTC operations budget will look at them for savings before anything else; York Region will be given the option to top-up the difference (and refuse).

and might end up costing less

Capital wise that might be as a Toronto Rocket will have a smaller tunnel diameter. Of course, a double-decker train can carry the same passenger load with shorter station boxes which would offset added tunnel costs.

Operations costs for the Mississauga segment would be very similar.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The subway to square one would get all the MT buses off of Dundas.

 

[44 North]

When this thread was started I don't think anyone would've even considered the possibility of having subway station distances of +5km. Unless there's a bay or chasm in between it's a pretty ludicrous concept here. But with the current stationless SSE getting the greenlight it's a gamechanger.

If the City ends up seriously supporting a subway to Sherway again then I don't see why they couldn't do a similar SSE-style straight run from Sherway to Square One. As the crow flies it's 6km from West Mall/Queensway to Burnampthorpe/Hurontario, which is on par with SSE. Obviously that length would increase with an actual routing, but still. If 6km with no stations is doable then why not 8km or something. After all Milton GO upgrades are a nonstarter apparently.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

When this thread was started I don't think anyone would've even considered the possibility of having subway station distances of +5km. Unless there's a bay or chasm in between it's a pretty ludicrous concept here. But with the current stationless SSE getting the greenlight it's a gamechanger.

If the City ends up seriously supporting a subway to Sherway again then I don't see why they couldn't do a similar SSE-style straight run from Sherway to Square One. As the crow flies it's 6km from West Mall/Queensway to Burnampthorpe/Hurontario, which is on par with SSE. Obviously that length would increase with an actual routing, but still. If 6km with no stations is doable then why not 8km or something. After all Milton GO upgrades are a nonstarter apparently.

I sincerely hope the City of Mississauga would be smart enough to spend billions of dollars on investments other than a one-stop subway to Square One.

 

[44 North]

I sincerely hope the City of Mississauga would be smart enough to spend billions of dollars on investments other than a one-stop subway to Square One.

I agree it is a silly concept. But then again so is bypassing Lawrence East with SSE. And if we look at the talking points about 'connecting the region's centres' or whatever then it's clear price isn't exactly a dealbreaker. We'll be having subways up to Richmond Hill, which is exactly the distance of Mississauga's downtown. And Sauga's downtown is actually real. Also planned upgrades for Milton GO have been dropped for the next two decades, so there's that. I don't exactly support what I wrote in the previous post, but *within the context* of official arguments used elsewhere I don't see why a straight-shot subway to Sq One would be struck down so easily.

 

[drum118]

Other than 2 councilors, subway will never be seen in Mississauga unless there is density to support it as well. At the same time, if the line going to cost more than $3.50 in subsidizes per rider, never will see daylight at all.

Those who think transit must be underground must believe transit riders are rats and must be hidden from those who drive. I for one am not a rat and like to see daylight as well the sun along seeing what new along the route. Like TTC, I have gotten off along a route to do some shopping or visiting a new store when things catch my eye.

There are places for subway just like all other molds, but more so when ridership exceeds the carrying capacity of those molds.

Streetcars built Toronto, yet when buses came along, it was bus to subway with no streetcar between then.

Dundas from 427 to Dixie would be phase 1 since has been a blight area as long as I live here. It offer the greatest development area for both residential and employment land. Dixie GO Station is over a 5 minute walking distance from the main intersection today to get a bus on a good day. Where the line goes next is very debatable, but should stay on Dundas to Cawthra as Phase II. It still a blight, but not as bad as phase 1, and has less area for development north of the tracks that will be mostly residential and commercial with employment south of the tracks.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I always figured the stops on such an extension would be Honeydale-Sherway-Dixie-Cawthra-Cooksville-Burnhamthorpe-Mississauga City Centre. It would be about 12km long of an extension from Kipling, but you could probably use the rail corridor at the surface for about 5km of it to reduce cost.

 

[vic]

I still think that if a couple of LRT lines fed into the subway (even if subway was extended somewhat) it would be better bang for the buck, covering more area. Dundas St. LRT, Burnhamthorpe LRT (the Mississauga portion has huge ROW). This would also improve local service.

As someone who commutes into "downtown" Mississauga via the Bloor line and #76 MiWay bus, I really don't feel like pushing the subway out there would really be worth it, even though it would benefit me directly with a one stop ride (assuming the city centre stop is a reasonably close walk from office).

I could use more frequent buses though. And fewer scheduled buses disappearing into the ether.

 

[Jeff Morgan]

I still think that if a couple of LRT lines fed into the subway (even if subway was extended somewhat) it would be better bang for the buck, covering more area. Dundas St. LRT, Burnhamthorpe LRT (the Mississauga portion has huge ROW). This would also improve local service.

...

I could use more frequent buses though. And fewer scheduled buses disappearing into the ether.

There are plans for a BRT to come up Dundas already. This will connect with the Hurontario LRT.

 

[jys]

but you could probably use the rail corridor at the surface for about 5km of it to reduce cost.

You can't. The tracks are owned by CP and used by the Milton line GO trains. CP would not allow anymore commuter trains, let alone frequent subway trains.

 

[Rainforest]

Those who think transit must be underground must believe transit riders are rats and must be hidden from those who drive. I for one am not a rat and like to see daylight as well the sun along seeing what new along the route. Like TTC, I have gotten off along a route to do some shopping or visiting a new store when things catch my eye.

While I'm not a strong supporter of Mississauga subway, I find it a bit extreme to object against underground transit because "people are not rats". Both YUS and BD subway are mostly tunneled, and their numerous riders don't seem to feel like rats when they travel underground. In fact, most of them would feel very cross if told to stop riding the subway and start taking surface transit only.

Parts of the streetcar system (Bay south, St Clair West, Spadina terminus), and a few bus terminals are underground as well; their riders don't suffer from low self-esteem, either.

 

[Rainforest]

The best option for Toronto - Mississauga connection would be a RER-style service on the Milton line, with an underground diversion to connect directly to Square One.

If CP feels this is a non-starter, and there is no chance to redirect CP freight to the northern bypass, then I would consider building a spur of the Lakeshore West line. It would split off the main line roughly in the Dixie & Lakeshore area, and run in a tunnel, diagonally to the main street greed, until it reaches Square One. Definitely more costly than a Milton line spur, but comparable in cost to Bloor extension, while being much faster for trips to Toronto downtown.

The third option, very theoretical at this point: a branch of the Relief Line West subway, serving the southern Etobicoke and then continuing to Square One. Presumably, the stop spacing would be wider than on the Bloor subway.

 

[44 North]

Hypothetically if reaching Sauga with Line 2 is the goal, wonder if it'd be better to just not extend from Kipling. Seems like after Islington we could branch the current surface portion behind 22 Div, then transition to an underground alignment back to Bloor. This would have to be included in the Westwood + new Etob Civic Ctr plans. Could then continue on Bloor offering stations at West Mall, Dixie, then Hurontario/Burnampthorpe.

If reaching Sherway is the goal, I dunno maybe continue west from Kipling using CP's ROW (well, tunneled below it). A spur could be sent south to Sherway with the rest veering across Etob Ck, then northward tunneled below the hydro ROW to Burnamthorpe.

Via Bloor

Via CP + hydro ROW w/ Sherway spur

 

[jys]

I don't know if this has been said already, but the good folks over at Dundas Connects made it clear that current and future circumstances do not justify a subway into Mississauga on Dundas and onto SQ1. The preferred option is BRT and I agree with that judgement. However, I don't mind fantasising about a subway to SQ1.