Subway To Mississauga: Routing

[Dan416]

Eastern Mississauga has actually depopulated within the last decade with the area east of Cooksville (bounded by Bloor-Cawthra-Dundas-Mississauga Valley); Malton; and the area around Lakeshore-Ogden suffering the greatest population loss. Meanwhile Steetsville, Churchill Meadows, Meadowvale, Mavis-MacLaughlin area north of the 403, MCC, Lorne Park and Port Credit have all grown.

Bloor may have apartment buildings, honestly which corridor doesn't, but that does not guarantee high walk-in yield. Dundas would have higher numbers because it'd be more easily accessible for routes from western and southern Sauga. Dundas also has actual trip-generator in the form of its popular, well-publicized, high in demand commercial retail strip from Cawthra to Universal. Bloor is more limited in its catchment, really only from Eastgate southwards. Dundas riders would still continue to head towards Kipling (or Honeydale/East Mall).

Growth from very little will always register as a large percentage increase.

When I talk of density, I mean of the built-form. Western Mississauga (west of the Hurontario) is sparsely populated, consisting mostly of single family homes, townhomes, and the occasional apartment building in Meadowvale.

Okay I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I know where I live there are virtually no apartment buildings. The areas that were zoned by high density (apartments) were down-zoned to medium density (townhomes) and the medium density areas were down-zoned to low density (single family homes) and this was relatively recently, i.e. the last 15 years or so. And currently, the last strips of land in west west Mississauga are being filled with....single family homes, although they are built much closer together now, it's hardly high density.

 

[doady]

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about? How is a subway to Square One not a Dundas subway? The subway has to hit Sherway (that's in the TTC's plans) and then it can only rejoin Dundas at Dixie-Dundas. From there, it should of course follow Dundas as much as possible. The only real debatable point is whether it should follow Dundas strictly and end at Hurontario-Dundas, or veer off Dundas sooner to hit MCC. Both options have their pluses and negatives. If the Hurontario LRT is completed by then, riders could transfer at Hurontario-Dundas to the Hurontario LRT if they want to head north, or even south. But such an alignment almost mimics GO more than an extension directly into MCC.

GO does not serve the Dundas corridor. GO does not have single station in the Dundas corridor.

A subway extension focused along Dundas would not be for direct service to Downtown Toronto or MCC, which GO can do much better, and therefore would be less redundant.

A subway along Dundas would be at a loss, not a gain. TOD isn't guaranteed by the implementation of a subway.

Guaranteed or not, Dundas is the only routing that has any potential at all for TOD.

 

[Dan416]

Here are stops that have usually been suggested for a subway to Mississauga (stops in Toronto are from RTES, stops in Mississauga are by my choice):

East Mall (Kipling-East Mall distance = 1.6 km)
Sherway (East Mall-Sherway distance = 2.0 km)
Dixie (Sherway-Dixie distance = 1.7 km)
Tomken (Dixie-Tomken distance = 1.2 km)
Cawthra (Tomken-Cawthra distance = 0.8 km)
Cliff (Cawthra-Cliff distance = 1.0 km)
Hurontario (Cliff-Hurontario distance = 1.1 km)
Central Pkwy (Hurontario-Dundas-Central Pkwy distance = 1.4 km)
Burnhamthorpe (Central Pkwy-Burnhamthorpe) = 0.7 km)

Clearly the largest gap is between East Mall and Sherway, and between Cawthra and Hurontario if you leave out Cliff Station (it'd be about 1.8 km). As for the rest of them they're on average 1 km within Mississauga's borders, which is pretty comparable to subways within Toronto I'd say.

In comparison, a [completed] Sheppard Subway would have Downsview, Goddard, Bathurst, Senlac, Yonge, Willowdale, Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie, Don Mills, Consumers, Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount, Kennedy/Agincourt, Brimley, STC (which is 17 stops, give or take if you have all those stops or not).

The extension from Kipling to MCC is 9 stops (give or take).

 

[Fresh Start]

Well, let's just say that a completed Sheppard subway is about as likely as a Square One Bloor Line extension and leave it at that.

Seeing as every subway extension since the 1970s has been about "equalizing" the suburbs with the downtown/midtown urban core, maybe 40 years is about enough of a timespan to have the pendulum swing back towards where metro subways have been modularly proven to work the whole world over; not where we're focused on boosting egos at the expense of budgetary overruns both in the construction and upkeep of these meandering subway lines to nowhere. This is not to sound harsh, but we have to be realistic here. That the VCC extension will not benefit 85% of Toronto commuters is disheartening. I personally will never have need for a Jane/407 Transitway Stn, and I'm still unclear just who precisely will. I hope to never see that kind of conniving, self-interested, pork-barrel ponsei scheme dominate an issue like this ever again; especially not to places that already sit next to underused express commuter-rail lines that are competitive against the subway for getting suburban commuters into the downtown and to other parts of the 416.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Why would the VCC extension not benefit 85% of Toronto commuters? Is York U not important enough? Only 2 of the six stops, and a little over 2 km of its length is outside Toronto's boundaries. And if VCC does actually develop as planned, it'll be an employment node destination for a lot of 416ers. You could argue we should have stopped at Steeles but then we would not have gotten funding to get from Downsview to York in the first place. 2km in this case is not necessarily very burdensome given what we got for it.

Richmond Hill is a slightly different beast. 4 of the 6 stops are outside Toronto and half the length is outside as well. But here what holds is the unique nature of Yonge. This a corridor that is continually developing northward and already has significant demand from the north. It just makes sense to take the subway northward. Up till where is debatable. But hardly anyone would doubt that sooner or later, whether in one phase or several that the subway would reach RHC.

Sheppard too is a continuous corridor. Demand decreases as you get eastward, and of course, there's debate on where the subway should end. But it's one single corridor. And one that had a specific role: connecting STC and NYCC.

I don't see how Bloor-Danforth into Mississauga in this case is analogous to Sheppard or Yonge (are we aiming to connect Sherway with SQ1?) or even the TYSSE (it's not a mere 2 km from Sherway), unless we are viewing the subway as a replacement for a Dundas BRT or LRT (an Eglinton subway into 'sauga could well have a better argument). And if that's the case does it help Mississauga if they lost LRT or BRT on Dundas? This is not a continuous corridor. What's being built here is basically a commuter rail line that intersects several corridors. How is this different from GO? That's what I want to know. Who will use the subway and how? What hole does this subway fill that GO and MT dont' right now? If it's just a cheaper way to get downtown, then couldn't the whole thing be pulled off cheaper with just better fare and service integration between GO and MT?

There are many reasons Mississauga should see a subway extension (I'd just like to see the case better defined and I want to know why it should go to Square One and not just continue down Dundas), but the worst one has to be, "Just because Scarborough has one". The situation of a Scarborough resident supporting the TTC with his taxes and requiring subways not just for downtown but to access other parts of Toronto is not analogous to a Mississauga resident at all who already benefits from cheap and fast GO service (remember GO's fare by distance policy and lack of fare integration penalizes TTC users) to downtown Toronto.

 

[Dan416]

^ Why would the VCC extension not benefit 85% of Toronto commuters? Is York U not important enough? Only 2 of the six stops, and a little over 2 km of its length is outside Toronto's boundaries. And if VCC does actually develop as planned, it'll be an employment node destination for a lot of 416ers. You could argue we should have stopped at Steeles but then we would not have gotten funding to get from Downsview to York in the first place. 2km in this case is not necessarily very burdensome given what we got for it.

Richmond Hill is a slightly different beast. 4 of the 6 stops are outside Toronto and half the length is outside as well. But here what holds is the unique nature of Yonge. This a corridor that is continually developing northward and already has significant demand from the north. It just makes sense to take the subway northward. Up till where is debatable. But hardly anyone would doubt that sooner or later, whether in one phase or several that the subway would reach RHC.

Sheppard too is a continuous corridor. Demand decreases as you get eastward, and of course, there's debate on where the subway should end. But it's one single corridor. And one that had a specific role: connecting STC and NYCC.

I don't see how Bloor-Danforth into Mississauga in this case is analogous to Sheppard or Yonge (are we aiming to connect Sherway with SQ1?) or even the TYSSE (it's not a mere 2 km from Sherway), unless we are viewing the subway as a replacement for a Dundas BRT or LRT (an Eglinton subway into 'sauga could well have a better argument). And if that's the case does it help Mississauga if they lost LRT or BRT on Dundas? This is not a continuous corridor. What's being built here is basically a commuter rail line that intersects several corridors. How is this different from GO? That's what I want to know. Who will use the subway and how? What hole does this subway fill that GO and MT dont' right now? If it's just a cheaper way to get downtown, then couldn't the whole thing be pulled off cheaper with just better fare and service integration between GO and MT?

There are many reasons Mississauga should see a subway extension (I'd just like to see the case better defined and I want to know why it should go to Square One and not just continue down Dundas), but the worst one has to be, "Just because Scarborough has one". The situation of a Scarborough resident supporting the TTC with his taxes and requiring subways not just for downtown but to access other parts of Toronto is not analogous to a Mississauga resident at all who already benefits from cheap and fast GO service (remember GO's fare by distance policy and lack of fare integration penalizes TTC users) to downtown Toronto.

I think the tax issue is a huge red herring considering the province is paying the municipal portion. And Mississauga and Peel in general get a lot LESS back in services from the taxes they pay than does Toronto or virtually any other region in the entire province. Peel is worse off than York, Durham or Halton. So don't talk to Mississauga about taxation. Need I remind the people on this board that up until very recently Peel did subsidize Toronto social services.

If you feel having the subway along Dundas duplicates the planned Dundas LRT, we can route it along Bloor instead which actually works out better for Mississauga anyway. It would not follow RTES, and it would require moving Kipling station or at the very least rerouting the subway back up to Bloor street but it would get to Square One faster and more directly. Or we could branch the lines with one to Sherway terminating there, and one branch following Bloor to Square One.

As for saying Yonge Street is a special case, well then I think we need to upgrade the Hurontario LRT to subway considering Hurontario is a busier 905 corridor than Yonge.

 

[Dan416]

I love how everyone loves to talk about the subway extension to Mississauga, but refuses to post in the appropriate thread. Anyway, here's a Google Map of the approximate locations of East Mall and West Mall stations based on the RTES 2002 map:

 

[Fresh Start]

Technically, Sherway Gardens is still very much a part of Metro Toronto and all discussions in the other thread (at least on my part) were pretaining to a subway extension to that point, not Mississauga.

 

[Dan416]

Technically, Sherway Gardens is still very much a part of Metro Toronto and all discussions in the other thread (at least on my part) were pretaining to a subway extension to that point, not Mississauga.

Notice the title of thread I made? "Subway to Mississauga: Routing". That covers the whole shebang from Kipling to MCC, inclusive of East Mall and West Mall, especially since the question I posed was whether we should follow the RTES via Sherway and then Dundas or whether we should follow TRZ's suggestion of routing along Bloor instead for quicker access to MCC.

I think it'd be reasonable to have one branch serve Sherway and one branch serve MCC, since the optimal routing for each is completely different.

EDIT: After Google mapping it, the Bloor route isn't significantly shorter than the Dundas route, so it's really up to personal preference then. Though I think with Dundas slated for LRT, Bloor could use the subway.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think the tax issue is a huge red herring considering the province is paying the municipal portion.

Not really. The province is trying hard to avoid chipping in to the TTC. Notice the recent refusal to pitch into the TTC subsidy. This now means that the TTC operations are funded entirely by farebox and the contributions of Toronto ratepayers. And in the long run, the cost of running the thing will be far more expensive than building it. Though, you can bet that if we get a powerful enough minister from Mississauga who wants a subway they'll probably get one.

And Mississauga and Peel in general get a lot LESS back in services from the taxes they pay than does Toronto or virtually any other region in the entire province. Peel is worse off than York, Durham or Halton. So don't talk to Mississauga about taxation.

That has less to do with provincial kickbacks in as much as it has to do with economy of scale. Toronto has the density to be able to do more with less. Mississauga, the rest of Peel, York, Durham, Halton do not. If you are talking net contribution to higher levels of government. Is there any doubt that more money flows out of the 416 than any other municipality in Canada? I'll bet that the HQ of the big 5 banks downtown alone send more money out in days than does all of Peel region in a year.

Need I remind the people on this board that up until very recently Peel did subsidize Toronto social services.

...with the subsidy, the surrounding regions also sent us their poor. That's why that subsidy was in place. How often do you see panhandlers in Mississauga? Now compare that to downtown Toronto.

Back to transit....

If you feel having the subway along Dundas duplicates the planned Dundas LRT, we can route it along Bloor instead which actually works out better for Mississauga anyway. It would not follow RTES, and it would require moving Kipling station or at the very least rerouting the subway back up to Bloor street but it would get to Square One faster and more directly. Or we could branch the lines with one to Sherway terminating there, and one branch following Bloor to Square One.

Personally, I don't have a preference. I just want to see the case for whichever corridor they pick better defined. And it's really gotta be strong if somebody's advocating passing over Toronto taxpayers in Sherway to give a faster ride and connection to Mississauga residents. Though, if Toronto ends up absorbing Mississauga someday, maybe that calculus will change.

As for saying Yonge Street is a special case, well then I think we need to upgrade the Hurontario LRT to subway considering Hurontario is a busier 905 corridor than Yonge.

In the 905 maybe. But there is no way that Hurontario is busier than Yonge inside the 416. And that's what the subway extension is meant to serve first and foremost (Finch to Steeles). Beyond Steeles, demand is debatable. Fortunately for York Region, RHC is literally down the streets. And unfortunately for Mississauga, Square One is not. York will get a subway for their prudence in planning. Mississauga will have to wait. Doesn't mean Mississauga won't get a subway. But let's face it, it's a lot tougher case to make to go till Square One, compared to taking Yonge up to RHC (the next most logical stop after Steeles). Stopping short at Steeles, would basically create another Kennedy station (albeit for York Region). The same can't really be said about cutting short the subway at East Mall or Sherway.

 

[Dan416]

Not really. The province is trying hard to avoid chipping in to the TTC. Notice the recent refusal to pitch into the TTC subsidy. This now means that the TTC operations are funded entirely by farebox and the contributions of Toronto ratepayers. And in the long run, the cost of running the thing will be far more expensive than building it. Though, you can bet that if we get a powerful enough minister from Mississauga who wants a subway they'll probably get one.

That has less to do with provincial kickbacks in as much as it has to do with economy of scale. Toronto has the density to be able to do more with less. Mississauga, the rest of Peel, York, Durham, Halton do not. If you are talking net contribution to higher levels of government. Is there any doubt that more money flows out of the 416 than any other municipality in Canada? I'll bet that the HQ of the big 5 banks downtown alone send more money out in days than does all of Peel region in a year.

It isn't about Toronto doing more with less. It's doing more with more. If anything, Mississauga and Peel are doing less with less. We get a lot less funding per capita than Toronto does. I bet that Mississauga/Peel get back a lot less relatively speaking compared to how much the provincial and federal govt's take out of the city/region. But you don't have to take my word for it.

http://www.fairsharetaskforce.ca/

 

[Fresh Start]

As for saying Yonge Street is a special case, well then I think we need to upgrade the Hurontario LRT to subway considering Hurontario is a busier 905 corridor than Yonge.

Given that you could very realistically be stuck with a BRT line down Hurontario, maybe we ought to be thankful that at least LRT is still being considered and not jinx things with 'aspirations' of grandeur. And Bloor would by far be the worst alignment, worse than CNR, Dundas, even Burnhamthrope. We need alignments that are both fast and direct and that can be built cheaply.

In the 905 maybe. But there is no way that Hurontario is busier than Yonge inside the 416. And that's what the subway extension is meant to serve first and foremost (Finch to Steeles). Beyond Steeles, demand is debatable. Fortunately for York Region, RHC is literally down the streets. And unfortunately for Mississauga, Square One is not. York will get a subway for their prudence in planning. Mississauga will have to wait. Doesn't mean Mississauga won't get a subway. But let's face it, it's a lot tougher case to make to go till Square One, compared to taking Yonge up to RHC (the next most logical stop after Steeles). Stopping short at Steeles, would basically create another Kennedy station (albeit for York Region). The same can't really be said about cutting short the subway at East Mall or Sherway.

Square One is 2 kilometres north of a rapid transit line that runs expresses trips into the heart of downtown Toronto and crosses the Bloor-Danforth twice. All that's needed really here is a 2 km long tunnel from Cooksville to SQ1. RHC is situated on a GO commuter-rail line 10 minutes north of Oriole/Leslie and hence 15 minutes away from NYCC and the Yonge corridor. Since feeder traffic into the outermost points of the subway system originates from several different areas and many routes just happen to congregate at "centres" because that where the buses are directed to terminate, it'd be unfair to assume that extending lines just a little bit deeper into suburbia is the only way to resolve 905-416 commuting issues.

Extending the subway line to Steeles today makes sense today and it's tail track could conceivably run to at least the York Sub, making future expansion northwards a healthy prospect. However Yonge North could just as well be a LRT line. I'm not fully sold on the premise that Thornhill/Langstaff Gateway will generate as high returns as hoped. I still see many new residents of the 407 lands as being car-dependent apart from students and seniors. Time will tell, but when you've got the TTC touting its Sheppard Line as a failure when that corridor is lined to the hilt with condos; it makes you wonder about the fate of the line in relation to the rest of the system where heritage trusts restrict the whole corridor's development and ergo daily ridership potential south of the 407 til Clark.

 

[nfitz]

Well, I didn't expect this to resurface anytime soon.

One of Toronto's draft comments to Metrolinx about the 2041 Regional Transportation Plan is that "the Relief Line West and Bloor-Danforth West Extension are omitted".

It's not a surprise that the Relief Line West (Osgoode station to Bloor subway) is mentioned - though it is hidden in the draft RTP as a post-2041 project in Appendix 3E on page A-29.

However, it's the first mention I've heard of the Bloor-Danforth West Extension since 2013. And there's never been much discussion as far as I know.

I wonder what brought this on. It surfaced on Thursday in Attachment 5 of the SmartTrack Project Update and Next Steps for the November 28, 2017 Executive Committee meeting.

As a refresher, here is a bit of one of the 2013 figures which showed the Line 2 extension into Mississauga (project S) following Bloor Street. (D is the Dundas BRT - which corresponds to Metrolinx's draft RTP project 34 from Kipling to Bronte). This if from the Feeling Congested studies - though I don't recall it being anything more than a line on a map.

 

[innsertnamehere]

IIRC council directed staff to report back on the project a few years ago along with the sheppard subway again, and nothing ever came from it.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

IIRC council directed staff to report back on the project a few years ago along with the sheppard subway again, and nothing ever came from it.

How many years do you suppose "a few years ago" is? I seem to recall that sometime last year Council directed Staff to report back on the Bloor-Danforth West extension. It might have been at the same time City Planning's transit plan was approved by Council.

Is it normal for Staff to not report back when Council asks them to?