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Star: Shopping wars: 'Screw it, I need some bags'

MetroMan said:
^ Currently, the situation is that people use retail shopping plastic bags to line their garbage bins. That's good because they're at least reusing the bag for a purpose other than their trip home with their shopping. The issue stands in that the garbage and the bags get thrown into dumps and remain in that state for 1000 years.

What should be happening is that garbage liners be all biodegradable. There are some brands of garbage liners like this already. It works for both the green bin and the regular trash. In both situations, the bag dissolves over a couple of weeks in contact with moisture. Whatever is biodegradable/compostable returns to nature, including the bag.

Regulating this is straightforward. Once we get people and the industry in the habit of not using plastic bags, the remaining holdouts will see the plastic bag eliminated by prohibiting their sale in the city (this should be province and countrywide, but let the city set the example and do its own thing for now). Having that ban on plastic bags, the next step is to ban plastic garbage liners and allow only the biodegradable kind... which the industry is voluntarily moving towards anyway.
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Well said.

The problem is that there are a lot of "biodegradable" plastic bags on the market, only some of which are actually biodegradable. Some of the "biodegradable" bags are simply engineered to break down into tiny pieces of plastic (the word is oxo-biodegradable, IIRC), and therefore aren't all that much better than plain plastic bags. Some of the brands of "biodegradable" doggie "poop and scoop" bags are the worst offenders.

One needs to look for compostable bags, certified by the U.S. Composting Council. Interestingly, the truly compostable bags are usually no more expensive that the misleading "biodegradable" bags. BioBag, the brand shown in the photos above, is a good one (although it is shipped in from Norway, which arguably has its own environmental implications). There are other good brands -- the Region of Peel has a good list of brands on its site.
 
there's no reason why compostable bio bags can't be manufactured locally to meet our needs. such a solution as the one posted by metroman is one i've mentioned in this thread before because i believe it's easier to change "plastic" than it is to change people's habits. if long lasting plastic is a threat, we should be thinking on a larger scale.
 
Prometheus The Supremo said:
there's no reason why compostable bio bags can't be manufactured locally to meet our needs. such a solution as the one posted by metroman is one i've mentioned in this thread before because i believe it's easier to change "plastic" than it is to change people's habits. if long lasting plastic is a threat, we should be thinking on a larger scale.
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There are companies that manufacture them locally. A few of the brands on the above-noted Peel list are made here in Ontario.
 
I've gotten these, which are pretty good - and amount out to 5 cents a bag at Canadian Tire. I think they're available at virtually any grocery store.

0429837_1

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow.../Biosak%3F+Kitchen+Brown+Bags%2C+20-count.jsp
 
Plastic-bag use has dropped 70%, grocer says
Posted: June 29, 2009, 10:24 AM by Rob Roberts
The city of Toronto’s 5-cent fee on plastic bags, created in a bid to cut their use, is working — and well beyond Toronto's borders.
The Metro grocery store chain, which instituted the fee across Ontario and Quebec after the Toronto bylaw, said today it is using 70% fewer bags across both provinces.

In a press release, Metro says it is selling five times more reusable bags than it did before the fee was instituted June 1.

The release includes a quote from Jo-Anne St. Godard, executive director, Recycling Council of Ontario: "By encouraging the use of reusable shopping bags, Metro and its shoppers are making a significant environmental commitment and are demonstrating that it is the simple every day changes that can make all the difference.’’



http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...astic-bag-use-has-dropped-70-grocer-says.aspx
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If anything, this is a clear demonstration that Toronto can play a huge leadership role in this country. A simple change here can create ripples across the region.
 
299, thanks for posting. Yes, this was entirely predictable, and in fact, it's clear that within a few years, everyone everywhere in N America will charge for plastic bags, and it will be a normal fact of life, like, for instance, not smoking in bars, recycling various materials, wearing a seatbelt, or banning asbestos.
 
Mr.Colley said:
Finally a solition that has some brains behind it. I never would have thought of that to be honest. How is it priced compated to traditional black bags?
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About 15% more. However, economies of scales dictate that the more people using a product, and the more competition that enters that market, the lower the prices will go.

Eventually, plastic bags will end up being more expensive because there will be a much reduced demand for them.
 
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Skeezix said:
Well said.

The problem is that there are a lot of "biodegradable" plastic bags on the market, only some of which are actually biodegradable. Some of the "biodegradable" bags are simply engineered to break down into tiny pieces of plastic (the word is oxo-biodegradable, IIRC), and therefore aren't all that much better than plain plastic bags. Some of the brands of "biodegradable" doggie "poop and scoop" bags are the worst offenders.

One needs to look for compostable bags, certified by the U.S. Composting Council. Interestingly, the truly compostable bags are usually no more expensive that the misleading "biodegradable" bags. BioBag, the brand shown in the photos above, is a good one (although it is shipped in from Norway, which arguably has its own environmental implications). There are other good brands -- the Region of Peel has a good list of brands on its site.
Click to expand...

Skeezix, you seem to have better knowledge of the workings of these so I won't assert the following as fact but I've read that the non-compostable bags, the ones that simply disintegrate, break down to tiny bits of carbon that becomes consumable to bacteria, vanishing completely from their "plastic" form within less than a year.
 
MetroMan said:
Skeezix, you seem to have better knowledge of the workings of these so I won't assert the following as fact but I've read that the non-compostable bags, the ones that simply disintegrate, break down to tiny bits of carbon that becomes consumable to bacteria, vanishing completely from their "plastic" form within less than a year.
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I'm no scientist, so I don't pretend to be an expert. I have to say, though, that I have read the opposite, especially in relation to the damage that the "microscopic" plastic bits can cause to ecosystems (in particular, Weisman's The World Without Us contains a very compelling description of the problem). I suppose it all has to do with how the plastic is engineered, although I am still leery of using a product made from petro-chemicals (given peak oil predictions and all that) if there is an alternative available. There are likely a variety of plastics available (as compared to the "plastic" compostable bags made from corn starch and the like), and my other fear is that many bags that claim to be biodegradable are not the advanced types of plastics that could be consumable to bacteria.

My own personal experiment last summer involved a "biodegradable" plastic bag from Lettuce (now Freshii) and a biosak compostable bag. Both went in my compost drum last summer -- the Lettuce bag was completely intact come spring 2009, while the biosak bag was gone.

The fundamental problem is that there is so much conflicting information out there, not to mention deliberate misinformation by the plastics industry, that it is extremely difficult for the average consumer to make informed choices.

There is also the big question of how much biodegration actually occurs in modern landfills.
 
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299 bloor call control. said:
I've gotten these, which are pretty good - and amount out to 5 cents a bag at Canadian Tire. I think they're available at virtually any grocery store.

0429837_1

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow.../Biosak%3F+Kitchen+Brown+Bags%2C+20-count.jsp
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Awesome 299,
I will definatly be picking them up. Do you know if they make yard bags the same? cause that would be quite a good idea. But here's another questions. Is the process of making these bags any better on the enviroment?
 
Skeezix said:
The fundamental problem is that there is so much conflicting information out there, not to mention deliberate misinformation by the plastics industry, that it is extremely difficult for the average consumer to make informed choices.

There is also the big question of how much biodegration actually occurs in modern landfills.
Click to expand...

You bring up a good point. In your composter there was plenty of bacteria to eat the plastics as they broke down as well, (assuming they were enginered that way) but in a land fill conditions are different, What they need are little packets you throw into the bag when you tie it up to start that process..
just an idea.
 
299 bloor call control. said:
If anything, this is a clear demonstration that Toronto can play a huge leadership role in this country. A simple change here can create ripples across the region.
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Toronto can be the Canadian California: a large enough market that firms cannot afford to not sell into.
 
afransen said:
Toronto can be the Canadian California: a large enough market that firms cannot afford to not sell into.
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TO and surrounding area are ever growing but there are alot of things that need to change before this kind of thing would really happen. Specificly the government/union bs that keeps being battled out.
 
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