Star: Shopping wars: 'Screw it, I need some bags'

[afransen]

Then why were people already reducing their plastic bag use before the Tariff? Was it retroactively applied?

A major retailer did a study that analysed methods of reducing plastic bag use, from sign/poster/advertising campaigns, to incentives at checkout (like the points system), to offering bag recycling in store. None of these methods were particularly effective. The only technique that worked, short of banning bags, is charging a nominal fee for bags. It's not even the money, which would represent only a tiny percentage of the spend at most stores. It is just a subtle reminder, and a change from having to opt out of bags to having to opt in. And they have real, empirical analysis to back this up. You aren't going to win this argument.

*shrug* I hardly see how resisting punitive taxation is dated, but whatever floats your junk.

Is this all because you can't actually picture yourself weighing the pros and cons of your lifestyle choices and require the government to enact legislation to remind of you of what's right and wrong? You would argue that commerce isn't pervasive in modern society? You would argue that this isn't social control - or at least social conditioning?

No, you wouldn't argue any of those things - you just want to argue 'cause it's me. Lame. Transparent and lame.

No one's stopping you from using bags. You're just going to pay for them. Cry me a river.

 

[TKTKTK]

A major retailer did a study that analysed methods of reducing plastic bag use, from sign/poster/advertising campaigns, to incentives at checkout (like the points system), to offering bag recycling in store. None of these methods were particularly effective. The only technique that worked, short of banning bags, is charging a nominal fee for bags. It's not even the money, which would represent only a tiny percentage of the spend at most stores. It is just a subtle reminder, and a change from having to opt out of bags to having to opt in. And they have real, empirical analysis to back this up. You aren't going to win this argument.

I'm sure it'll be effective. Possibly more effective than just education etc, but that still doesn't mean it's a good thing. Punitive taxes are, simply, super bad. It's actually exactly like torture. I'm sure some forms of it work really well, but it's a shitty thing to do to people so we don't.

No one's stopping you from using bags. You're just going to pay for them. Cry me a river.

I do, and then I do this:

 

[nfitz]

Wow, you must really save bags to still have Boots ones lying around ... must be near 20 years ...

 

[afransen]

I'm sure it'll be effective. Possibly more effective than just education etc, but that still doesn't mean it's a good thing. Punitive taxes are, simply, super bad. It's actually exactly like torture. I'm sure some forms of it work really well, but it's a shitty thing to do to people so we don't.

What is special about a tax on bags that makes it punitive, while other taxes are less so? Secondly, I don't think paying five coppers for a bag is comparable to simulated drowning, or having fingernails pulled out with a pair of pliers.

It's also not truly a tax. It's simply a regulatory requirement that retailers charge for bags. The government does not collect the revenue. Retailers are free to pocket it, but most major stores are donating it to environmental charities.

 

[TKTKTK]

What is special about a tax on bags that makes it punitive, while other taxes are less so? Secondly, I don't think paying five coppers for a bag is comparable to simulated drowning, or having fingernails pulled out with a pair of pliers.

I should be making out right now, but i'm taking time out of my busy romance schedule to write this important reply to your question:

It isn't that it's a tax on bags (who fucking cares?) it's that we're becoming accustomed to the idea of punitive taxation as a viable means of 'controlling' behaviour. Super sucky. 5 cents is nothing, I nearly throw nickles away (who even takes them?), but the principal is worth far, far, far more.

It's also not truly a tax. It's simply a regulatory requirement that retailers charge for bags. The government does not collect the revenue. Retailers are free to pocket it, but most major stores are donating it to environmental charities.

They're donating a portion because the original uproar about them just pocketing it (and they'll do that for the majority of funds) was great They're not stupid.

Do you REALLY think it was altruism that drove Loblaws to start charging for bags before the deadline? hahah as fucking if.

Make out time! Later Gaytors...

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

so retailers are free to pocket the 5 cents? who enforces the 5 cent/bag rule? does it cost taxpayer money to enforce this rule? it kinda seems strange that the government is doing work forcing retailers to make a profit.

why not just ban plastic bags and allow only types of bags that are biodegradable?

 

[MetroMan]

So its been a short time with this rule implemented and retailers are finding a way around it: paper bags. Simple concept and it works.

So far, I've been delivered PizzaPizza items (drinks, wings) in paper bags, and I've been given paper bags at my local grocery store. I hear that the Metro @ Liberty Village is selling collapsable cardboard boxes for 10¢ (fits about 4 plastic bags worth of items). I've also shopped at clothing stores and the once premium paper bags are the de facto standard. The Bay is doing the same.

Paper bags are probably currently more expensive than plastic, but I think that with quantity, prices will drop and paper bags will become the new plastic bag. Another advantage is that a small business like a local grocer can buy these bags in bulk for cheap and brand them themselves. All they need is a printer and a computer and they're giving out branded bags instead of the generic white plastic bag.

The good news is that these paper bags are made from recycled paper, and are again recyclable and biodegradable, regardless of how you decide to sort them. They won't lay in the ground for 1000 years, won't clog up our sewer systems and won't make it to the lake creating a hazard for the wild life that inhabits it.

... and my favorite: yet another way to wean western culture from petroleum based products.

I've turned down plastic bags for years now, it's good to see it become the norm.

 

[wonderboy416]

Paper bags are probably currently more expensive than plastic, but I think that with quantity, prices will drop and paper bags will become the new plastic bag. Another advantage is that a small business like a local grocer can buy these bags in bulk for cheap and brand them themselves. All they need is a printer and a computer and they're giving out branded bags instead of the generic white plastic bag.

Paper bags are just horrible in the rain (or snow probably). They just tear and become useless when wet... even with an umbrella I have struggled as most clothing retailers over here only hand out paper bags.

Still, I can't believe people are upset over a $.05 charge for a plastic bag. If you want the luxury of having a bag, PAY FOR IT! Boohoo.. if you're at a stage in your life where 5 cents for a bag is going to dent your bank account then surely you must have bigger things to worry about.

We need to put the environment first, sadly there are idiots who resist everything, every step of the way. Look at all the anti-windmill folk... they're probably the same people crying about paying 5 cents for a bag lol

 

[TKTKTK]

Still, I can't believe people are upset over a $.05 charge for a plastic bag. If you want the luxury of having a bag, PAY FOR IT! Boohoo.. if you're at a stage in your life where 5 cents for a bag is going to dent your bank account then surely you must have bigger things to worry about.

We need to put the environment first, sadly there are idiots who resist everything, every step of the way. Look at all the anti-windmill folk... they're probably the same people crying about paying 5 cents for a bag lol

Paying 5cents a bag is not putting the environment first, not even Loblaws' PR machine is brave enough to put that idea forward.

All we're doing is normalizing a new method of social control in Canada, showing that we don't mind the idea of punitive taxation. While it might not seem like a big deal right now, because you like the issue, that won't always be the case. This is something we should be opposing out of principal.

and re: companies getting to just pocket the 5cents. Believe it I think the wisdom is that it would cost more than that to set up a system to get the money from retailers, so it's just easier to let them keep it on their end.

Again, why do you think Loblaws and other grocery stores voluntarily started charging the fee months before they had to? Their commitment to the environment? LOL!

 

[wonderboy416]

Paying 5cents a bag is not putting the environment first, not even Loblaws' PR machine is brave enough to put that idea forward.

All we're doing is normalizing a new method of social control in Canada, showing that we don't mind the idea of punitive taxation. While it might not seem like a big deal right now, because you like the issue, that won't always be the case. This is something we should be opposing out of principal.

It's not???
You don't think there will be less plastic bags in our landfills and dumps as a result of this? You don't think there will be a reduction in pollution as plastic bag makers drastically cut production? I guess it depends on what alternatives the public uses. I for one am willing to bet that there will be a positive impact on the environment. In the grand scheme of things it will be fairly minimal, but all the little things we do add up in a big way.

Why should a bag be free? How is this social control? You still have 100% choice over what you want. No one is forcing you to pay the 5 cents... in fact most people aren't, which I think is excellent. Are cigarette and gas taxes social control too? What about by-laws that force you to maintain your lawns?

Your fear that our society will become a utopia of surcharges for things that used to be free is unfounded. But you can keep on trucking there and go ahead ruining the planet $.05 at a time... good for you.

 

[TKTKTK]

It's not???
You don't think there will be less plastic bags in our landfills and dumps as a result of this?

You're right. Now our landfills will be made up of 0.8% plastic bags.

You don't think there will be a reduction in pollution as plastic bag makers drastically cut production?

No, I think the more tangible result will be fewer jobs at those bag makers.

In the grand scheme of things it will be fairly minimal,

Yes!

but all the little things we do add up in a big way.

YES!!!

Why should a bag be free?

It isn't free. Neither is the staff (which you don't pay directly either). It's part of overhead You pay for them through mark-up. Also, roads aren't free.

How is this social control?

It's a punitive tax

Are cigarette and gas taxes social control too? What about by-laws that force you to maintain your lawns?

Yes, Yes, Yes.

Your fear that our society will become a utopia of surcharges for things that used to be free is unfounded. But you can keep on trucking there and go ahead ruining the planet $.05 at a time... good for you.

It's my faith that our society doesn't need punitive and base action taken against it.

And as if plastic bags are ruining the planet. You make my torture comment seem tame.

 

[w.ll.am]

You're right. Now our landfills will be made up of 0.8% plastic bags.

That's actually not the point... Bags don't degrade for 1000 years. This means that anything inside the bag stays in the bag for 1000 years.

No, I think the more tangible result will be fewer jobs at those bag makers.

Laughable argument at best. If retailers aren't buying plastic they're buying paper, cardboard and cloth. All of which are more expensive which end up putting more money in more peoples hands.

It isn't free. Neither is the staff (which you don't pay directly either). It's part of overhead You pay for them through mark-up. Also, roads aren't free.

This is true. Bags were worked into prices... at less than one cent a bag and spread out over about 7 - 10 items. You should demand your 1/7th of a cent back on each item.

It's a punitive tax

Tax infers that you are forced to pay it. Since you have a variety of options to choose from that do the same task this gives you the option of not purchasing it at all. Thus... not a tax.

And as if plastic bags are ruining the planet. You make my torture comment seem tame.

It may not be ruining the planet but it seemed a fairly big problem with landfills. More likely they're trying to get compost / dry / recyclable materials separate in the toronto landfills. If all your compost is inside a plastic bag that isn't exactly going to help is it? It's a step of many and a step in the right direction.

This reply cost approx. 3,000 plastic bags.

 

[GraphicMatt]

TK is an 89-year-old retired army general who is apparently enjoying a newly-blossomed romance yet still takes the time to rage against the new cost of plastic bags. I know this because Tyler knows this.

All taxes are punitive to a degree. This isn't even a tax. It probably should be, but whatever. It must be really hard to live your life feeling angry about any kind of taxes - must making getting gas, going to the airport, buying booze, selling wheat and breeding cows really infuriating for him.

 

[afransen]

Indeed. I can only imagine how TK feels for the entire month following the filing of his income tax return.


Plastic bags are actually quite harmful to wildlife. They end up in the ocean and are ingested by many species, including endangered species of turtles. I'm sure you think that these turtles are stupid and deserve to be extinct.

 

[Mr.Colley]

Plastic bags are a convenience, One that is far out weighed by the negative impact. There are some places where they are even being deemed illegal now. Where if your caught with them you can be jailed. I don't know if it has been implemented yet but i know that it is supposed to happen. And the weird part if i remember correctly it was a third world country that was doing it. Here's a random link about it. Read up, Its quite interesting.
"http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/environment/shoppingbags.html"