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Star: Next issue for TTC: How to tell who's paid
- Thread starter wyliepoon
- Start date
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Tyne and Wear Metro, Newcastle upon Tyne. No way we could do something like this here due to privacy laws but it's interesting to see how much shame works.
Ha! Love it! God bless the British...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZgwNutwK0Y
(it's Monty Python's 'Blackmail')
Acting Minor Traitor
New Member
The problem still exists outside Transit City, too - maybe they should put automatic gates at the entrances and exits of the bus boarding areas. I was waiting for the 84 at Sheppard-Yonge yesterday and some kid skateboards up through the bus entrance and hops into the station like it was the most normal thing in the world. Really burns me, it does.
Of course, then, I suppose they'd have to figure out what's more expensive - whatever number of evaders they get, or the millions that installing such a system would cost.
Now that I think of it the answer's pretty obvious.
Of course, then, I suppose they'd have to figure out what's more expensive - whatever number of evaders they get, or the millions that installing such a system would cost.
Now that I think of it the answer's pretty obvious.
nfitz
Superstar
Wouldn't any kid who frequently uses transit most likely have a pass?
Acting Minor Traitor
New Member
Maybe, but there's a difference between having a pass and skateboarding up through the entrances that are signed "NO ENTRY - $500 FINE" and never actually having to pass through a turnstile.
nfitz
Superstar
People enter and exit through those areas all the time. I've watched TTC employees do it as much as anyone else (and not those currently on duty). Heck, sometimes, I've seen buses come into the station where the people coming off, are about 3-feet from the sidewalk in the no-entry zone - and everyone heads to the street - some then re-entering the subway station through the main entrance with their pass ...
If someone is coming in through the back door, I'd just assume that they have a pass - and nothing untoward.
urbanfan89
Active Member
A few days ago I tried "evading" the fares myself by walking up to the bus bays at the Eglinton station. It was so easy to get in it was not funny. The sidewalk led straight up to the bus bay. While I was walking by one of the bus drivers told me to get on and pay the $2.75, explaining a hidden CCTV caught me walking up.
I showed him the Metropass and he "reminded" me to walk through the legal entrances.
So I guess they already enforce the NO ENTRY $500 FINE policy.
I showed him the Metropass and he "reminded" me to walk through the legal entrances.
So I guess they already enforce the NO ENTRY $500 FINE policy.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Not to get too nitpicky but they weren't envorcing it, really were they? I mean before you showed your pass all the guy was going to do was make you pay the $2.75 fare not the $500 fine for entering the wrong door....and, even when you showed him your pass....the fine is for entering the wrong way so whether you had paid or not is irrelevant....you still broke the "do not enter here" rule.
They may have been monitoring/policing the NO ENTRY $500 FINE policy but they certainly were not enforcing it!!!
RedRocket191
Senior Member
Technically only a provincial offenses officer can lay that charge, not a driver. Asking for correct fare is all the legal power he has at his disposal.
brianinhogtown
New Member
Almost every streetcar in Toronto that I ride is plastered with several notices, inside and out, prominently promoting "POP - TTC's Proof of Payment Fare System", and clearly encouraging people to "Board via rear doors with valid pass or transfer". I regularly ride the Dundas 505 streetcar, and am extremely shocked at those streetcar drivers who yell loudly and rudely at passengers who do so.
As a resident, my understanding is that in practice this system is limited exclusively to the Queen Street line. However, nowhere do the TTC's own official notices say that this fare system is limited to one streetcar line only. To the contrary, they give every indication that it applies across all TTC streetcar lines.
So why is this system falsely advertised on streetcars as being TTC wide, applying on all streetcar lines, when in fact it only applies on one line? Some drivers on the Dundas line are extremely tyrannical and obnoxious when passengers enter by the rear doors, even to the point of refusing to continue on the route until such passengers exit again by the rear doors from a crowded streetcar and re-enter by the front doors, holding up all passengers in the process.
Many other cities do operate their transit on a system-wide honour system, and visitors from those cities, who read the TTC notices promising them such a system, and then rely on it, should not have to be yelled at and embarrassed in front of other passengers. Either this vaunted "Proof of Payment Fare System" (POP) should apply on all streetcar lines, or the notices should clearly and prominently state that it applies only to the Queen Street line.
The Dundas streetcars are getting more and more crowded every day, until no more passengers can be accommodated via the front doors, while room inevitably remains at the back, which can be accessed via the rear doors. Why indeed should this POP system not be officially applied on a system-wide basis, as the TTC's own public notices suggest that it already is?
As a resident, my understanding is that in practice this system is limited exclusively to the Queen Street line. However, nowhere do the TTC's own official notices say that this fare system is limited to one streetcar line only. To the contrary, they give every indication that it applies across all TTC streetcar lines.
So why is this system falsely advertised on streetcars as being TTC wide, applying on all streetcar lines, when in fact it only applies on one line? Some drivers on the Dundas line are extremely tyrannical and obnoxious when passengers enter by the rear doors, even to the point of refusing to continue on the route until such passengers exit again by the rear doors from a crowded streetcar and re-enter by the front doors, holding up all passengers in the process.
Many other cities do operate their transit on a system-wide honour system, and visitors from those cities, who read the TTC notices promising them such a system, and then rely on it, should not have to be yelled at and embarrassed in front of other passengers. Either this vaunted "Proof of Payment Fare System" (POP) should apply on all streetcar lines, or the notices should clearly and prominently state that it applies only to the Queen Street line.
The Dundas streetcars are getting more and more crowded every day, until no more passengers can be accommodated via the front doors, while room inevitably remains at the back, which can be accessed via the rear doors. Why indeed should this POP system not be officially applied on a system-wide basis, as the TTC's own public notices suggest that it already is?
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CDL.TO
Moderator
I agree, the POP signage is terrible. This sticker is on the exterior of EVERY streetcar:
How is that not confusing when the streetcar isn't on Queen/Queensway/Lake Shore?
How is that not confusing when the streetcar isn't on Queen/Queensway/Lake Shore?
nfitz
Superstar
I don't think that sticker is on the streetcars. That looks like the sticker that's on the poles for POP stops.
I thought the one on the streetcar clearly mentioned Queen, Queensway, and Lake Shore.
Certainly the website is very clear about it - http://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Fare_information/Proof_of_payment.jsp
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brianinhogtown
New Member
No matter what the website says, the sticker on the street cars makes it appear as if "TTC's Proof-of-Payment Fare System" applies to all streetcar routes system-wide. The sticker is posted everywhere on the streetcars, inside and out, with no mention of the Queen Street line anywhere. I once directed one surly streetcar driver's attention, (a driver who was threatening people entering via the back doors with immediate police action), to the very same sticker, which was situated on his seat right behind him. He replied sharply and angrily, "That's only Queen Street", ignoring the fact that nowhere is this indicated on the sticker.
The Dundas streetcars are getting more and more overcrowded, with more and more occasions where there is no more room for people to enter by the front doors, while space remains at the back of the streetcar which is accessible by the back doors. Dundas streetcar drivers are in the habit of calling on the people boarding via the back doors to exit and come to the front doors, which are already packed solid. The drivers are also known to refuse to move until this is done, or until the police have been called, delaying all the passengers onboard.
There are laws against false advertising, of which I believe this is a prime example. Perhaps some brave soul, who is impolitely harassed by a streetcar driver in this fashion, will one day make a test case out of such an occurrence. The driver who yells "It applies only to Queen Street" should be challenged on the spot, when the sticker right behind him (or her) fails to make any distinction whatever, and clearly suggests that it is system-wide.
The TTC has two options - make its "Proof-of-Pay Fare System" system-wide, in keeping with its advertising, or add the restriction of "Queen Street only" to every single sticker on its fleet of streetcars.
The Dundas streetcars are getting more and more overcrowded, with more and more occasions where there is no more room for people to enter by the front doors, while space remains at the back of the streetcar which is accessible by the back doors. Dundas streetcar drivers are in the habit of calling on the people boarding via the back doors to exit and come to the front doors, which are already packed solid. The drivers are also known to refuse to move until this is done, or until the police have been called, delaying all the passengers onboard.
There are laws against false advertising, of which I believe this is a prime example. Perhaps some brave soul, who is impolitely harassed by a streetcar driver in this fashion, will one day make a test case out of such an occurrence. The driver who yells "It applies only to Queen Street" should be challenged on the spot, when the sticker right behind him (or her) fails to make any distinction whatever, and clearly suggests that it is system-wide.
The TTC has two options - make its "Proof-of-Pay Fare System" system-wide, in keeping with its advertising, or add the restriction of "Queen Street only" to every single sticker on its fleet of streetcars.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
If one has to check a website to see the ifs, ands or buts of what the sign is supposed to denote, I'd say the use and design had failed utterly.
AoD
AoD
nfitz
Superstar
I just came home, taking a CLRV, ALRV, and watching a few other CLRVs that passed.
That sticker you refer to is on the inside. But not the outside. The one on the outside of every streetcar I saw, is much bigger, and on both sides of the rear doors. It clearly says on the bottom: Queen, Queensway & Lake Shore ONLY - 7:00 am to 7:00 pm -7 days a week. This detailed sticker can also be found on the inside of the ALRVs (which I photographed a few minutes ago).
Below is a photo I found on the web showing the placement.
If that were true, then yes. But it isn't.