Star: Next issue for TTC: How to tell who's paid

[epcjay]

I just came home, taking a CLRV, ALRV, and watching a few other CLRVs that passed.

That sticker you refer to is on the inside. But not the outside. The one on the outside of every streetcar I saw, is much bigger, and on both sides of the rear doors. It clearly says on the bottom: Queen, Queensway & Lake Shore ONLY - 7:00 am to 7:00 pm -7 days a week. This detailed sticker can also be found on the inside of the ALRVs (which I photographed a few minutes ago).

Below is a photo I found on the web showing the placement.

If that were true, then yes. But it isn't.

+1. I've seen those as well. Not sure how brianinhogtowif completely missed those signs if he's a resident. I can remember as far as two years those signs were there. Probably even further back. I only started taking the street car two years ago

 

[CDL.TO]

I stand corrected. But legibility could certainly be improved. The fact that I've used the streetcar most days for the past 3.5 years AND I'm the type of person who pays attention to transit signage and wayfinding, but yet I'm still not clear on what the signs say is NOT a good sign.

 

[brianinhogtown]

I have certainly seen those detailed stickers on the 501 Queen streetcars, where the Proof-of-Payment Fare System quite clearly applies. Those stickers on the Queen Street cars are not at issue. I very rarely ride the Queen Street cars, though.

However, I do use the Dundas 505 streetcars, several times a day. Not one of the stickers that I see plastered all over the Dundas streetcars, inside and out, mention any restriction of any kind to what is proudly referred to on each sticker as "POP - TTC's Proof of Payment Fare System", with no limitation.

Those Dundas stickers say nothing at all about Queen Street nor any other streetcar line, and can therefore be quite properly assumed by a visitor to apply to the entire TTC transit system. Streetcar drivers therefore have no right to loudly threaten dire consequences to and embarrass those passengers who take the stickers at their word, and enter the streetcar by the back doors.

+1. I've seen those as well. Not sure how brianinhogtowif completely missed those signs if he's a resident. I can remember as far as two years those signs were there. Probably even further back. I only started taking the street car two years ago

 

[DSC]

As the whole fare system will change with Presto I don't see much point getting worked up about the POP system but must say I see two problems with it. Absolutely NO enforcement (I have never seen an inspection in 10+ years here) and as many people travel with tickets/tokens I wonder why all passengers who put in ticket/tokens or cash on the 501/508 are not forced to take transfers. If there ever were an inspection how could they prove they had paid?

 

[nfitz]

However, I do use the Dundas 505 streetcars, several times a day. Not one of the stickers that I see plastered all over the Dundas streetcars, inside and out, mention any restriction of any kind to what is proudly referred to on each sticker as "POP - TTC's Proof of Payment Fare System", with no limitation.

You are wrong. The streetcars on Dundas have a big huge sticker on both sides of the back door (outside the streetcar saying that's it's only valid on Queen, etc. You can see them clearly in the picture I posted above.

Streetcar drivers therefore have no right to loudly threaten dire consequences to and embarrass those passengers who take the stickers at their word, and enter the streetcar by the back doors.

Why not ... it's clearly signed not to enter through the back doors, on the outside.

 

[brianinhogtown]

OK, you're quite right. Never having tried using the back doors to enter, I must admit I hadn't noticed. So the question remains - why don't all the other stickers say the very same thing? There are so many of them inside, and people are more likely to read them while sitting in the streetcar with nothing else to do, not while standing outside.

You are wrong. The streetcars on Dundas have a big huge sticker on both sides of the back door (outside the streetcar saying that's it's only valid on Queen, etc. You can see them clearly in the picture I posted above.

Why not ... it's clearly signed not to enter through the back doors, on the outside.

 

[nfitz]

OK, you're quite right. Never having tried using the back doors to enter, I must admit I hadn't noticed. So the question remains - why don't all the other stickers say the very same thing? There are so many of them inside, and people are more likely to read them while sitting in the streetcar with nothing else to do, not while standing outside.

The simple answer is that there isn't space in the CLRVs for the bigger sticker. Which is why you only see them inside the ALRVs which have extra wall space near the partition.

Though a better question is why put more text on the smaller stickers.

Given the whole POP policy is going to be changed as the new streetcars are introduced (505 will be POP once it has the new streetcars), there doesn't seem much point worrying about it now after 2 decades.

Rather than the stickers, the bigger confusion issue is that frequently on all routes, the driver is allowed to use his discretion and direct people to the rear door when there's overcrowding. And because different drivers have different discretion, this is likely a bigger source of confusion than the stickers.

 

[calimehtar]

I thought it was common knowledge that the new streetcars would use a proof of payment system.

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/11/this_is_what_the_new_ttc_streetcar_looks_like/

IMO a good proof of payment system, anywhere it is implemented, would be a huge improvement. I don't think it's possible to create a system that would effectively ensure everyone has paid while boarding a bus or streetcar at a busy stop while allowing people to board in an efficient way. The way it works today, if there are more than 2 or 3 people boarding, creates bottlenecks that slow the entire system down. And as others have pointed out, there is still a high percentage of transit users who aren't paying.

POP as I've seen it done in Europe, requires a small number of people boarding vehicles and checking for payment. If they find you haven't paid they will fine you and demand payment on the spot. If the fines are high enough, and checks are done regularly, they make up for any lost revenue and act as a deterrent. It doesn't require posting people at every busy stop to check tickets.

In Budapest (probably elsewhere too) even the subway is POP.