SmartTrack (Proposed)

[TheTigerMaster]

The TTC never operated under direct control of a group of municipalities. It operated under Metro Toronto. What I am proposing would actually be creating a new regional version of the old Metro government. We could have a regional political council or we could have the regional bureaucracy report to Queen's Park. I don't really care how that bit is managed. I just think its nuts that we don't have a regional body overseeing transit and transport in a region of 5 million.

If you wanted to create something like Metro Government for managing transit, that's something I could fully stand behind. I though you were pushing for Mr. Hudak's suggestion of uploading TTC to the province.

 

[crs1026]

My proposal would be to have said agency operating under the umbrella of a collective of municipal governments, similar to how the TTC used to work. That is not what Tim Hudak proposed (which is what this debate is about).

You're correct, Hudak proposed absorbing it all, although whether that proposal was serious or just speech-filler on a slow campaign day I'm not confident of. It seemed to be forgotten as quickly as it was raised, and neither of the competing parties did much to validate it by arguing for something else.

Unfortunately, the old GTAA wasn't all that effective, either. It was operated as an umbrella of municipal governments. (Reminds me of the old cartoon where the rain is falling under the umbrella, and not outside it.)

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The old Metro Government had quite a bit of political interference from the province, so I wouldn't necessarily support emulating that.If I recall correctly, at one point the metro government was rearranged by the province to give less influence to certain parts of the city. If we were to pursue a Metro Government for transit, it should be created by and accountable to municipalities, not to the Province, to avoid provincial meddling.

We'd need to also ensure that local issues are sufficiently represented. That a coalition of municipalities couldn't stop one municipality from building and paying for certain infrastructure .

Overall the idea is sound.

 

[kEiThZ]

How could anyone watch the past 5 years of Toronto council and come away thinking, "No matter what, we CAN NOT allow control of local transit to be taken away from these people!"

This.

And I don't understand why people in the GTA don't understand that regional issues impact them. If York has poor transit, then commuters could be clogging up Toronto streets.

ing you'll make an "arms length" agency is nice, but in reality these agencies tend to be a mouthpiece for the provincial government. Remember, Metrolinx is also technically an "arms length" agency, but they're no more distant from the province than my ring and pinkie fingers are from each other.

If you wanted to create a new Metro Government, that's something I could fully stand behind. I though you were pushing for Mr. Hudak's suggestion of uploading TTC to the province.

How effective was Metrolinx when they had all those politicians sitting on the board?

Hudak's suggestion was a little ham-fisted and hasty. And to be fair to him, he thought he was doing Toronto a favour by taking an expensive budget component and uploading it to the province. After all, Toronto had been crying for years that transit costs weren't shared like before...

But I don't get the wisdom in throwing the baby out with the bath water. Regional management can still be a good idea, even if you don't like the specific proposal in implementing it. I'd personally prefer reporting to a provincial committee. But if there's that much concern over democracy, just create an oversight regional council that either has every mayor in the GTA on it, or some proportional representation.

And I'm not just proposing transit. I want to see transit, paratransit, taxi licensing, and transit policing all being uploaded to a single agency. I want to see Metrolinx also take over management of all regional highways and major roads (Gardiner, DVP, etc.). I also want to see Metrolinx get its own fare streams from gas tax to regional property tax surcharges to maybe even congestion charges (like in London).

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Saying you'll make an "arms length" agency is nice, but in reality these agencies tend to be a mouthpiece for the provincial government. Remember, Metrolinx is also technically an "arms length" agency, but they're no more distant from the province than my ring and pinkie fingers are from each other.

Again, this is looking at everything through the existing paradigm. I know basically how other Transit Authorities work but I'm not an expert so I can't say PRECISELY how one would work in the GTA but, totally spitballing....

You toss the current board. You keep a couple of GO people, you probably have some expert citizen Anne Golden types and then you have regional representation, based on population. So maybe TO is the mayor (or delegate) + 3 councillors, Peel is the chair + 2....I dunno. Doesn't really matter.

Legally speaking, it HAS to be provincial. The municipalities cannot create anything on their own. Metro is a creation of the province, so is the current City of Toronto; so is every municipality in which everyone of us lives, because of the Constitution Act, and the Municipal Act.

Technically, a pol or anyone can interfere in anything, any organization. Practically speaking, it's all about the legislation. There is no reason that the province cannot amend the Metrolinx Act with a radically different structure.

Simple examples:
current act:
The board shall be composed of not more than 15 persons appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister.

That clause is gone. (The Lt G in Council is legalese for "cabinet" for those who don't know).
The clause preventing a member of muni council from being a board member? Gone.

The Lieutenant Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister, shall designate a chair and vice-chair from among the members of the Corporation’s board of directors
Gone.

The Minister may issue policy statements that have been approved by the Lieutenant Governor in Council on matters relating to transportation planning in the regional transportation area
Super duper gone.

In fact, do FIND AND REPLACE, and every time you see "Lt. Governor in Council," erase it. Boom - cabinet has no power over Metrolinx. That's how our government works and that's my civics class for the day.

To conclude:
-A regional transit authority can only be created by the province
-It can totally be independent and answer to local municipalities; the law just has to say so
-Whether it's Metrolinx or the GTTA or something else, a body created by the province can be precisely as independent and strong as they are willing to let it be and today's Metrolinx is beholden to them, but only by design

 

[crs1026]

The Minister may issue policy statements that have been approved by the Lieutenant Governor in Council on matters relating to transportation planning in the regional transportation area
Super duper gone.

In fact, do FIND AND REPLACE, and every time you see "Lt. Governor in Council," erase it. Boom - cabinet has no power over Metrolinx. That's how our government works and that's my civics class for the day.

Ah, but here's the rub. You can't remove the Cabinet as the source of the money. So long as that's the case, you will have an interface between your Super-ML and the Province. And the Province, through at least one Ministry (Finance) and more likely two (Finance and Transportation) will demand a ton of data, and rationale. And will have program people developing programs, and asking whether Super-ML's ideas align to the programs, and analysing the data that they request.

So long as they do that, they might as well create policy. I don't have a problem with the Minister declaring policy. That's why we pay the Minister.

The problem comes when someone (like a Deputy Minister) can phone or meet with the agency and in effect say "The Minister wants x done"

The solution to that is called the Shareholder Resolution. In other words, if the Minister has a policy, they have to put it in writing, and it's discoverable and not subject to Ministerial Privilege. If the Minister doesn't issue a resolution, the agency does as it sees fit.

Whether it's Metrolinx or the GTTA or something else, a body created by the province can be precisely as independent and strong as they are willing to let it be and today's Metrolinx is beholden to them, but only by design

True, but I doubt that any government of any stripe is going to appoint a Board of such independent and resolute types that they turn and bite the hand that just appointed them.

Perhaps transit commissioners and the ML Board should be elected. As opposed to Councillors falling into the jobs, or citizen appointees getting appointed through a closed-door process.

I would leave local transit agencies to be local, where they can deal with local issues. The ML policy work could be done by a professional civil service, if having civil servants wasn't such a dirty word. I'm not sure how having a big bureaucracy at ML is an improvement. A lot of what ML is doing to regulate the transit agencies is not valuable. Do we care if MiWay's wayfinding is different than Durham's? Both may be effective. If Burlington has a Route 1 and Durham has a Route 1? (ML people do, and if that's all they are working on, they ought to be redundant).

ML should define the network priorities, and leave it at that.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Again, this is looking at everything through the existing paradigm. I know basically how other Transit Authorities work but I'm not an expert so I can't say PRECISELY how one would work in the GTA but, totally spitballing....

You toss the current board. You keep a couple of GO people, you probably have some expert citizen Anne Golden types and then you have regional representation, based on population. So maybe TO is the mayor (or delegate) + 3 councillors, Peel is the chair + 2....I dunno. Doesn't really matter.

Legally speaking, it HAS to be provincial. The municipalities cannot create anything on their own. Metro is a creation of the province, so is the current City of Toronto; so is every municipality in which everyone of us lives, because of the Constitution Act, and the Municipal Act.

Technically, a pol or anyone can interfere in anything, any organization. Practically speaking, it's all about the legislation. There is no reason that the province cannot amend the Metrolinx Act with a radically different structure.

Simple examples:
current act:
The board shall be composed of not more than 15 persons appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister.

That clause is gone. (The Lt G in Council is legalese for "cabinet" for those who don't know).
The clause preventing a member of muni council from being a board member? Gone.

The Lieutenant Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister, shall designate a chair and vice-chair from among the members of the Corporation’s board of directors
Gone.

The Minister may issue policy statements that have been approved by the Lieutenant Governor in Council on matters relating to transportation planning in the regional transportation area
Super duper gone.

In fact, do FIND AND REPLACE, and every time you see "Lt. Governor in Council," erase it. Boom - cabinet has no power over Metrolinx. That's how our government works and that's my civics class for the day.

To conclude:
-A regional transit authority can only be created by the province
-It can totally be independent and answer to local municipalities; the law just has to say so
-Whether it's Metrolinx or the GTTA or something else, a body created by the province can be precisely as independent and strong as they are willing to let it be and today's Metrolinx is beholden to them, but only by design

As @crs1026 pointed out, this wouldn't' be effective at cutting out provincial political interference. This is the only way I see to get it done
1. Dissolve Metrolinx and GO Transit
2. Download Metrolinx infrastructure to the municipal level
3. Have GTHA municipalities, amongst themselves, come to an agreement for regional transportation operation, while ensuring their are adequate provisions for local representation
4. Ensure municipalities have necessary revenue tools

This would create a regional transit operator, maintain local representation, and cuts the province's ability to meddle with local transit operation.

 

[EnviroTO]

This will be good for 20 years of power? No. This is a huge shortfall over where we need to be. We still do not have commitments for where we need to be.

It needs to be compared to what prior governments delivered and what the governments of other jurisdictions have delivered. Per capita compared to other major cities in North America we are doing very well in terms of getting transit investment. Compared to the past we haven't built infrastructure of this scale since before 1980 (i.e. blame is spread around all three parties). I have voted for 4 different parties over the years, so I'm not really tied to any one party, but definitely without any other major issue being discussed, the party with a plan that invests in valuable infrastructure is one I am more likely to support. A Niagara peninsula freeway and shuffling around ownership of the transit file between the province, municipalities, or some other agency isn't going to get the job done. We need a government to campaign on delivering something as a priority and vote them in. Anyone who campaigns on studies or shuffling responsibilities isn't going to get the job done.

Having watched numerous TTC board and Metrolinx board meetings it is clear to me that between the two Metrolinx is better run. At the last meeting the TTC board wasn't sure what its role is. Create a bunch of regional arms length boards and the same issue will come up that if it is publicly elected then taxes and expenses will become a hot topic and politics will have projects come and go. Don't elect the board and keep things arms length then there will be little accountability and "Ornge" will happen. There is no escape of politics.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

As @crs1026 pointed out, this wouldn't' be effective at cutting out provincial political interference. This is the only way I see to get it done
1. Dissolve Metrolinx and GO Transit
2. Download Metrolinx infrastructure to the municipal level
3. Have GTHA municipalities, amongst themselves, come to an agreement for regional transportation operation, while ensuring their are adequate provisions for local representation
4. Ensure municipalities have necessary revenue tools

This would create a regional transit operator, maintain local representation, and cuts the province's ability to meddle with local transit operation.

It's a good idea, assuming the munis were willing and able to agree on it. But it's totally illegal, certainly in the current context.
In theory, the province could give municipalities the power to self-create revenue tools and to sign the sort of agreement you talk about but that would be a huge devolution of power, unprecedented not just in Ontario but in Canada.
Arguably it's necessary and theoretically possible but it's hugely unlikely.

Ah, but here's the rub. You can't remove the Cabinet as the source of the money. So long as that's the case, you will have an interface between your Super-ML and the Province. And the Province, through at least one Ministry (Finance) and more likely two (Finance and Transportation) will demand a ton of data, and rationale.

I know the basics of the law but obviously I don't actually write provincial legislation. I suspect there is a way to do it, legally if not politically. You probably can't legit remove cabinet entirely from the legislation - I was using some hyperbole - but you can easily restructure the legislation so they're not beneath cabinet in the power structure.

The scenario you lay out may be something any government would shy away from, but it's still more likely than the arguably-more practical and democratic scenario The Tiger Master laid out.

It's effectively how other transit authorities operate though, yes, the legislative context is different for Ontario than for, say, New York or Illinois. The province did make a bold move in dismissing all the politicians - which had both a good side and a bad one, I'd say. There's no reason they can't reverse that decision.

Then they need the stones to pass revenue tools and, effectively, put them in a fund that only that board can access; this is pretty much what was recommended in the Golden Panel report, IIRC.

You're right that no one likes giving up power (or money; which is really the same thing) but IMHO, that's how you do it:
-Metrolinx board w/ mixture of elected pols and appointees
-Revenue tools with segregated funding
-Obviously they report to the province but at ACTUAL arm's length; that means they don't have to break an MOU because Toronto council said so and the Minister agreed. The Minister going so far as to overrule Metrolinx on, say project prioritization, should be as newsworthy as City Council overruling staff on a major project. Legal, but very risky.

It's not reinventing the wheel by a longshot. It does require a real commitment to the principles, though.

EDIT TO ADD:
FWIW - Just using easy Wikpedia, this is how NYC's MTA board is appointed:
MTA is governed by a 19-member board representing the 5 boroughs of New York City and each of the counties in its New York State service area.

Five members, in addition to the Chairman and CEO, are directly nominated by the Governor of New York, with four recommended by New York City’s mayor, and one each by the county executives of Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester counties. Each of these members has one vote.

The county executives of Dutchess, Orange, Rockland, and Putnam counties also nominate one member each, but these members cast one collective vote. The Board also has six rotating nonvoting seats held by representatives of MTA employee organized labor and the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee, which serves as a voice for users of MTA transit and commuter facilities.

All board members are confirmed by the New York State Senate.

Substitute "county" for "regional municipality" and "New York State Senate" for "Ontario cabinet," and I think that's entirely workable here.

On a hugely related note, I just found this article by Anne Golden which I'm off to read...
http://www.cutaactu.ca/en/public-tr..._Transit_Systems_-_Final_Report_July_2014.pdf

the abstract promisingly notes:
There are pros and cons to having elected officials on regional transit boards, but positive engagement with locally elected representatives is essential. Financing cannot be separated
from governance; a predictable and sufficient funding framework is an integral part of good governance

Preach!

 

[Palma]

So you're an ex-Hudak supporter?

You seem to suggest that people in the GTA vote Liberal out of blind loyalty, and not because they believe a Liberal government will benefit them.

In the 2014 election, what do you think the PCs brought to the table that would've benefited the GTA more than what the Liberals proposed?

Its because the PC had Hudak as leader and eh came across so unbelievable and insecure. That was the issue

 

[Palma]

You can't upload the TTC without uploading all the transit services in the GTA. But that is a massively expensive proposition. On the other hand, profitable subways are seeing those profits go towards subsidizing feeder bus services instead of upgrades (like platform screen doors) or expansion. And from a political and regional perspective, the province has massively contributed to the capital costs of the subway network only to have the city view the subway network as their own, which in turns plays into the debates about regional utility of that network (like what we see on Yonge North) and even issues like regional fare structures (fighting fare by distance or integration with GO).

I can easily see the province uploading the subway and LRT network to Metrolinx and leaving the feeder bus service in Toronto's hands with some compensatory subsidy. The subway then becomes a regional asset where regional ridership and regional development goals are considered. Would think suck for Toronto? Probably. But from a regional perspective? Definitely not.

Its crazy. let metrolinx (province) deal with GO & RER and the TTC with subways, streetcars, bus. Is Metrolinx going to take control of transit in every city? Subways are not a regional thing. Its a local/municipal thing. Again the 905 wants subway because they see a flat fare and very frequent service. Metrolinx would cut service i.e decrease frequency in non peak time etc. Are there not subway lines in NY that do not run on the weekend to some locations? Thats the difference with TTC service. We can depend on the service whenever you need it. Buses on most routes 10 min and i can go on.

Toronto, the mayor and the TTC need to ensure TTC is not uploaded to Metrolinx and most certainly not the subway network. Toronto built those subway lines, not the province

 

[Palma]

So, hypothetical situation where the Province wants to cut Finch West bus service by 50%: users of that bus wouldn't be able to prevent that, unless they could somehow convince the party leadership otherwise. Good luck with that.

Compare to the current situation, where they'd complain to a local Councillor, local councillor can bring it to Council and Council can reject it, despite opposition from the Mayor.

Thats why transit needs to remain a local issue

 

[Palma]

TJ. Absolutely right. You won't find anybody else in the world saying "I love how they do it in Toronto. Their councillors get votes on local bus routes!" That's insane. You don't manage transit and transportation for a region of 5 million residents like that.

We're discussing transit. But it's not just transit. The GTA has no common roads authority despite having the densest road network in the province. Nor do we have a common taxi licensing authority despite the fact that cabs cross local boundaries everyday. This is why I like the TfL or MTA model. Mobility is their business. In all its forms. TfL doesn't just manage transit. They've got taxi licensing, roads, paratransit, rail, subways, cycling, transit policing, etc. all under their purview. And I've never once heard a Londoner say that they'd rather have our system over theirs because somehow TfL is undemocratic.

Regional management agencies just work. I've never heard of the kind fractitious transit debates we have in Toronto, anywhere else in the world. Mostly because the local politicians know they can't make hay of it. The agencies make their long term service and investment plans. And they stick to it. Doesn't matter if governments change.

Thats why TTC needs to be left alone even without interference from city council which has not been the case

 

[Palma]

As @crs1026 pointed out, this wouldn't' be effective at cutting out provincial political interference. This is the only way I see to get it done
1. Dissolve Metrolinx and GO Transit
2. Download Metrolinx infrastructure to the municipal level
3. Have GTHA municipalities, amongst themselves, come to an agreement for regional transportation operation, while ensuring their are adequate provisions for local representation
4. Ensure municipalities have necessary revenue tools

This would create a regional transit operator, maintain local representation, and cuts the province's ability to meddle with local transit operation.

Sounds good to me. I would vote for this

 

[TheTigerMaster]

SmartTrack could be Scarborough’s Yonge line, says U of T expert
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...arboroughs-yonge-line-says-u-of-t-expert.html