SmartTrack (Proposed)

[TheTigerMaster]

SmartTrack could be Scarborough’s Yonge line, says U of T expert
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...arboroughs-yonge-line-says-u-of-t-expert.html

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You say the media and transit blogs are developing a strong narrative that SmartTrack is a failure and was never a good idea. Why do you disagree with that?

The ridership numbers are extremely encouraging for SmartTrack, much stronger than anything else we’re looking at, if we look at some of the things we’re trying to accomplish with our transit system. First we have this huge preoccupation with Yonge St. relief. What we’re showing is that both the Downtown Relief Line and SmartTrack will significantly contribute to that.

SmartTrack was a wonderful idea. But wonderful ideas do not make feasible ideas. Unless Miller has a proposal to eliminate the very significant capacity constants of Union Station and our RER corridors, all this talk of 5 min SmartTrack at TTC fares is self-absorbent fantasy talk.

 

[rbt]

Unless Miller has a proposal to eliminate the very significant capacity constants of Union Station and our RER corridors, all this talk of 5 min SmartTrack at TTC fares is self-absorbent fantasy talk.

Union is really easy to fix; for under $2B you drive through a tunnel and don't go through today's Union. If ridership actually would be above the 20k pphpd range, that's a very cheap addition to achieve that kind of capacity (see Big J DRL pricing as a reference). Smart Track wasn't envisioned to be free; in fact it had a $7B price-tag originally; just much cheaper than an equivalent length of TTC bored subway line. Yes, it blows out the time-line for very frequent service but as a stop-gap lower frequencies can be available using Union's existing infrastructure.

RER corridors are nearly trivial (technically) to de-congest; ditch the express service. The policy that people 150km away need a 60 minute trip-time to Union is what causes the massive 5 track requirements for frequent RER + semi-frequent Express service. Get rid of express service so all trains stop at all stations and suddenly 3 tracks is more than enough for 3 minute RER frequencies, VIA, minimal freight movements, and deadheading some GO equipment. Only the Kitchener corridor requires additional tracks and frankly that should be solved by and paid for by the London HSR.

While people in Barrie deserve better than a 3 hour one-way trip time caused by 200+ stops on the line (every 500m), stops every 3km through the core of the city and every 10+ km further out won't cause that.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Its crazy. let metrolinx (province) deal with GO & RER and the TTC with subways, streetcars, bus. Is Metrolinx going to take control of transit in every city? Subways are not a regional thing. Its a local/municipal thing. Again the 905 wants subway because they see a flat fare and very frequent service. Metrolinx would cut service i.e decrease frequency in non peak time etc. Are there not subway lines in NY that do not run on the weekend to some locations? Thats the difference with TTC service. We can depend on the service whenever you need it. Buses on most routes 10 min and i can go on....
....Thats why transit needs to remain a local issue

Transit is not a local issue and never has been and, therefore, cannot remain so.

If that's your logic, try to articulate why "Transit needs to remain a local issue" in Toronto, but not in London, Chicago, Paris or New York City.

Subways are a "local/municipal" thing in New York City too, surely? And yet they are ultimately a division of a huge regional authority that controls everything from the buses to bridge tolls. What makes us special? What advantages does our system have over theirs?

Jeeze - I can't even imagine what transit in NYC would be like if they thought the subway was a "special" system that needed to be run totally differently than the buses and commuter trains and - even worse! - left in the hands of city council. Do you get that other major cities simply do not do what you think is so important to preserve here?

(The idea that a regional authority is incapable of figuring out what lines need to run at what hours is....it doesn't make sense, I'll say.)

IMHO - we're not special and our system is a joke compared to theirs. You know how long they've had electronic fare cards in NYC? It was launched in 1993!! The TTC is still collecting tokens in 2016! NYC hasn't had tokens since 2003. London's had the Oyster card since then too. That puts us - objectively speaking - nearly FIFTEEN YEARS behind these "world class cities" we like to hope we're in the same league as.

You know why they're so far ahead? A big part of is that they figured out transit is not a local issue.

You know who else figured that out? Us. In the 1950s. The reason people talked about Metro and TTC as models of governance and transit is because of how well they figured out where transpo should go in relation to where people go. We don't do that anymore because the scale of the governance body doesn't line up with growth patterns anymore. They realized they had to connect Toronto with North York and Scarborough; we fight about how to connect Mississauga and Richmond Hill to the megacity.

There are a lot of things that are local issues. I can hardly think of any more obviously and overtly regional than TRANSIT and transportation, generally. When enough people get that through their heads, we'll be able to catch up with everyone else in the world and maybe - one day in the distant future - get out in front of them again. But it's been a while.

Luckily RER/SmartTrack and cross-border subways are forcing us to realize that, "Gee - it's not 1967 any more! Apparently the world isn't entirely made up of people who live in the city and people who live outside it and take commuter rail to work and then back home!"

 

[WislaHD]

If the TTC is to be uploaded to the provincial level, then Metrolinx needs to be reformed to become a loooooot more independent and non-partisan. Something like Elections Canada but for regional transit planning, and with access to it's own revenue tools.

Otherwise, I don't know how people who have lived through Mike Harris could seriously contemplate having local transit needs become politicized at the provincial level. Don't they realize that this is how we got the Scarborough RT in the first place? (and the UPX as well...)

 

[BurlOak]

If subways would be uploaded, it would be the equivalent of the 400 series highway. The question to ask is how often does the province not allow an interchange to be built for a deserving municipal road, or not plow the ramps to certain exits to municipal roads.

This would give you an idea of having municipal buses coordinate with provincial subways.

 

[M II A II R II K]

There isn't going to be any SmartTrack unless it gets its own dedicated trackage.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the TTC is to be uploaded to the provincial level, then Metrolinx needs to be reformed to become a loooooot more independent and non-partisan. Something like Elections Canada but for regional transit planning, and with access to it's own revenue tools.

Otherwise, I don't know how people who have lived through Mike Harris could seriously contemplate having local transit needs become politicized at the provincial level. Don't they realize that this is how we got the Scarborough RT in the first place? (and the UPX as well...)

The Harris government is one of the primary reasons why I vehemently oppose uploading municipal infrastructure to the province. We've all seen how openly hostile the Province can be to the City, so I never again want Toronto to be in the position where it has to depend on the support of the Province for our future success.

Download the transportation (excluding 400 series) and poverty infrastructure onto the city, give the City the revenue tools to pay for it. If the Province wants to support us that's great, and if not, well, we'll be fine on our own.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This straw man keeps getting tossed out and beaten to death - no one is seriously suggesting uploading to the province. Not to the MTO or cabinet or the currently configured form of Metrolinx.

What we are suggesting (I'm pretty sure), is the creation of a regional transit agency. Without huge changes to the status quo this has to be a body created by the province. As I explaiined, that's the legal context in which we operate. But it can be entirely independent, precisely in the way the City of Toronto is created by the province but not part of the provincial government.

Metrolinx is not an independent transit authority now, obviously. Obviously the province wanted to keep them on a relatively short leash. They nonetheless provide a perfect skeleton upon which to build a proper regional transit authority.

the general trend over the past 50 years or so, is of a careful devolution of powers to city's but the City of Toronto Act is still the high-water mark and it's not so high.

If we're comparing:
a) The province giving massive taxation powers and legal authority to municipalities to manage transpo/transit on their own
b) Strengthening Metrolinx, giving them greater independence and dedicated funding via revenue tools etc

I think it's pretty clear which is more likely. Hugely more likely.

(And your distaste for uploading flowing from Harris is kind of counter-intuitive. Most of the problems he created are as a result of the province DOWNLOADING onto municipalities. Downloading is less of an issue with adequate legislative/taxation tools but his reign did the opposite of proving why municipalities should be in charge of more. I doubt there's anyone at the TTC looks back at 1995 and thinks, "Gee - we used to be so dependent on the province. Remember how terrible that was?")

 

[WislaHD]

And your distaste for uploading flowing from Harris is kind of counter-intuitive. Most of the problems he created are as a result of the province DOWNLOADING onto municipalities. Downloading is less of an issue with adequate legislative/taxation tools but his reign did the opposite of proving why municipalities should be in charge of more. I doubt there's anyone at the TTC looks back at 1995 and thinks, "Gee - we used to be so dependent on the province. Remember how terrible that was?")

It was both. Downloading of expenses and uploading of revenues. We got screwed big time, and had amalgamation on top of that.


I don't see why Metrolinx can't continue things like Fare Integration and Presto, while maintaining the independence of all our local transit agencies. It doesn't need to matter how things are structured behind the curtain when operationally, customers see an integrated service across the GTHA.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It doesn't need to matter how things are structured behind the curtain when operationally, customers see an integrated service across the GTHA.

OK, but that's obviously not the case now. How do you propose to get everyone on the same page while maintaining silos? No one, especially TTC, has any inherent reason to give up power "behind the curtain" .

The NYC subway is a separate division from the Long Island Railroad, and go and TTC et al would be the same here.

But I keep coming to the same question : we know most of the best transit systems in the world are governed by autonomous regional authorities, what makes us think we have a better idea?

Where is a great metropolitan system where the independence of local agencies was priotized? I agree riders don't care about the livery as long as they get where they want to, but that's window dressing. Governance and financing are key.

(And, come on - we all know those Harris moves were revenue neutral, right?
Yeah, giving more responsibility without giving more power/money is meaningless. That's how he screwed everyone.)

 

[kEiThZ]

That Toronto Star article is exactly how I visioned Smart Track would work in whatever form (independent or as RER). @rbt has elaborated some excellent points as well.

This whole bunfight between RER or Smart Track really shows you why we need one agency in Toronto. It's unbelievable that the TTC itself has never ever discussed using existing rail corridors. Equally unbelievable is that Metrolinx committed to 15 min RER without seriously considering Toronto's needs.

I don't give a rat's ass about governance or how it's done. There is only one taxpayer at the end of the day. All the agencies in the GTA need to get over themselves and put transit users first. Mobility should be at the core of their business. But instead, it often seems like bureaucratic wrangling or social policy or development takes precedence. Ridiculous.

 

[WislaHD]

But I keep coming to the same question : we know most of the best transit systems in the world are governed by autonomous regional authorities, what makes us think we have a better idea?

Where is a great metropolitan system where the independence of local agencies was priotized? I agree riders don't care about the livery as long as they get where they want to, but that's window dressing. Governance and financing are key.

I guarantee you that there is no universally agreed upon 'best' structure for transit authorities.

I agree there are different ways of handling these things. We definitely do not want to become San Fransisco's messy patchwork of transit agencies, though (PRESTO and Metrolinx aside) we are slowly moving towards this direction.

I don't know if I agree with the comparison of New York's MTA. Because they are working at essentially the same level as the TTC, just grander and with a different political/funding structure behind it. I think the comparison you are looking for is Vancouver's TransLink, which is what the GTHA's transit would look like if Metrolinx just annexed the TTC and other municipalities transit agencies. I am not convinced that TransLink works so efficiency (I've read many criticisms of it from Jarrett Walker), though I could be wrong.

Any comparison with Australian cities doesn't work because they do not have similar transit systems. Their subways are the same as their commuter lines and their commuter lines are their subways.

I am not familiar with agencies from European cities to speak of them, all I know is that transit planning in Europe is typically detached from the political process.

In Japan, pretty much half of the subway lines of Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka are owned and operated by private companies. These companies I guess can be described as many many independent transit agencies in of themselves, and yet they have an integrated fare and operating structure alongside with the publicly owned transit lines. To the customer, the differences between different company and private/public lines is unnoticeable. Operationally, everything is integrated and the customer can be completely oblivious that they have switched operators when they transfer.

It is Japan's model that I think we should strive for, minus the privatized transit. I see no reason why the TTC, York Region transit, Mississauga and Brampton transit, even Hamilton and K-W transit can't all co-exist independently, while having integrated fare structures and operations provided by PRESTO and overlooked by Metrolinx. You ask how do we get everyone on the same page, well, I think that will have to be Metrolinx's responsibility and big challenge.

 

[Palma]

That Toronto Star article is exactly how I visioned Smart Track would work in whatever form (independent or as RER). @rbt has elaborated some excellent points as well.

This whole bunfight between RER or Smart Track really shows you why we need one agency in Toronto. It's unbelievable that the TTC itself has never ever discussed using existing rail corridors. Equally unbelievable is that Metrolinx committed to 15 min RER without seriously considering Toronto's needs.
/QUOTE]

This agency that never considered Toronto's needs yet we need to give it control over local transit? Oky doky guess I was so wrong

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This agency that never considered Toronto's needs yet we need to give it control over local transit? Oky doky guess I was so wrong

Bingo!

The issue boils down to something quite simple: Metro worked because when it was building out the TTC network, the vast vast majority of growth was within the city and the number of people commuting from what is today the 905 was relatively insignificant.
If your transit system covers the commutershed, you're golden. And we were. And people studied the TTC and Metro.

Now it doesn't, and the transit system is a borderline joke.

In the meantime, Metrolinx probably considers Toronto's needs 10X as much as TTC cares about the needs of a rider who transfers to their system from Mississauga or Thornhill. The limit of their vision is astounding.

I guarantee you that there is no universally agreed upon 'best' structure for transit authorities.
I agree there are different ways of handling these things. We definitely do not want to become San Fransisco's messy patchwork of transit agencies, though (PRESTO and Metrolinx aside) we are slowly moving towards this direction.

You're totally right there's a lot of ways to do it and, as I said, it's not entirely clear something like the MTA could exist here, simply because of the difference in our political systems.

The reason I mention New York (aside from being relatively familiar with it) is that....well, first it doesn't really operate at the same level as the TTC. OK, the geography of our cities is pretty different but quite simply, translating it to our terms, the MTA covers the 416 and 905. Right? It covers Long Island and it covers parts of Connecticut and Westchester County too. Not NJ, but that's like if TTC went up to Richmond Hill (the horror!) and out to Pickering but maybe not Oakville - or whatever. It also covers boats and trains and subways and buses but that's all beside the point; what's relevant is that one agency is responsible for the vast majority of the commutershed, regardless of municipal boundaries. For all the concerns here about TTC just disappearing, it could continue to be run as a division of Metrolinx, just like GO. Then maybe YRT is a division and then the Peel systems are amalgamated. The specifics don't matter, just the principles of a single co-coordinating agency with divisions.

The MTA also has dedicated funding and independent authority over all its operations etc. and lots of other things I think we can learn from but I certainly agree the model just can't imported wholesale. I'm sure Translink can't either; we need a GTA-specific solution.

the idea that TTC should keep its fiefdom because Metrolinx is so mean and doesn't understand the city or because the Leaside bus will get cancelled or whatever is crazy. Toronto council has proven, beyond doubt, it interferes too much in transit decisions. It upended citywide plans THREE times in five years, it's repeatedly ignored, postponed, delayed, de-prioritized the line all professional planners consider most crucial to the future of the system and all the mayoral candidates were running insane, unworkable, back-of-a-napkin plans as the backbones of their campaigns. that benefits no one. not TTC, not riders, not taxpayers.

(I mean, I don't want to belabour the point but go on Youtube and watch that Matlow-Ford exchange on Scarborough again. The idea that this was how transit decisions get made is sickening. it was sickening to watch. They did this for like 2 days AND made the wrong decision. Remember Gary Webster getting fired? Need I go on?)

A properly constituted form of Metrolinx would have significant Toronto presence, at the political and staff level. All these other concerns are just parochialism and insanity to which you've become inured.

 

[WislaHD]

the idea that TTC should keep its fiefdom because Metrolinx is so mean and doesn't understand the city or because the Leaside bus will get cancelled or whatever is crazy. Toronto council has proven, beyond doubt, it interferes too much in transit decisions. It upended citywide plans THREE times in five years and all the mayoral candidates were running insane, unworkable, back-of-a-napkin plans as the backbones of their campaigns. that benefits no one. not TTC, not riders, not taxpayers.

There is something else (significant) that has happened over the past few years to keep in mind as well.

The TTC is not really involved in transit planning anymore. Transit City was the last transit plan the TTC had a role in creating, and the Spadina extension to York is the last rapid transit expansion project they are constructing. The Crosstown and all other lines are being built by Metrolinx.

The TTC has become purely the operator of Toronto's transit. Toronto City Planning department have become the transit planners.

We haven't seen this new arrangement bare it's fruits yet. We have only seen the first inklings under Tory and Keesmaat's current plans. We might well be entering into a new era of transit planning already, unnoticed to most of us.

I don't know how this impacts our discussion on the 'uploading' of the TTC to Metrolinx. I think at the very least it means that Toronto council will have significant purview on transit decisions even in these future scenarios. (And unlike yourself, I am unsure if that is a bad thing)