SmartTrack (Proposed)

[gweed123]

You can't upload without uploading all the transit services. But that is a massively expensive proposition. On the other hand, profitable subways are seeing those profits go towards subsidizing feeder bus services instead of upgrades (like platform screen doors) or expansion. And from a political and regional perspective, the province has massively contributed to the capital costs of the subway network only to have the city view the subway network as their own, which in turns plays into the debates about regional utility of that network (like what we see on Yonge North) and even issues like regional fare structures (fighting fare by distance...).

I can easily see the province uploading the subway and LRT network to Metrolinx and leaving the feeder bus service in Toronto's hands with some compensatory subsidy. The subway then becomes a regional asset where regional ridership and regional development goals are considered. Would think suck for Toronto? Probably. But from a regional perspective? Definitely not.

I just don't like the idea of picking and choosing which parts of a network you want to assume control of, and leaving the other guy to pick up the tab for the rest of it. Uploading the whole TTC may actually be less expensive than just uploading the RT network, because of all of the employee splits that would need to go along with it. If someone spends 50% of their time doing planning work for the RT network and 50% of their time for the local network, do they stay a TTC employee or do they become a Metrolinx employee? Uploading the whole thing in 1 go allows for a wholesale merger.

does your "all" mean all buses and RTs?

Buses, streetcars, RT, everything.

 

[gweed123]

Not really. Winning the big chair in Queen's Park involves more than the 416.

Absolutely. But a lot of the current schedule owes itself to funding constraints imposed on Metrolinx and other transit authorities. There's no reason for example that phase 2 in Ottawa and KWC, and Phase one of London's Shift can't be planned for and tendered in 2 years. Maybe GO RER can't be sped up. But there are other projects which most certainly can be accelerated and are subject entirely to funding constraints.

Confederation Line Phase 2 as far as I know is on track for a 2018 tender, with construction starting around the time that Phase 1 is wrapping up. Money isn't going to speed that one up. Many of the other delays are due to either planning or political reasons, not funding reasons.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How is this any different than GO being able to alter or cut services?

It's not. GO services can be cut and we'd all be shit outta luck.

You have an MPP, who will now have transit advocacy added to his responsibilities.

Having an MPP is nice, but the structure of the provincial government and the party system is such that individual MPPs/MPs are powerless to implement anything that party leadership does not endorse. Your MPP can 100% agree with you on an issue, but if the party leadership doesn't agree with it, that MPP is powerless to change it, and in most cases they won't even be afforded the opportunity to vote against it. Party leadership holds absolute power.

Federal and Provincial politics is all about towing the party line.

 

[kEiThZ]

This is the exact reason why Metrolinx exists. Their job is to coordinate regional transportation.

That's their job at the moment. No reason at all that mandates can't change. They already have GO Transit, UPE and Presto under their management.

If Metrolinx and the Province wanted the YRNS built, it would have been done already. It hasn't been built because of the lack of political will by the Province.

Never said that province wanted to build Yonge North.

What you propose isn't the solution to your problem.

I never said the subway network had to be uploaded to build Yonge North. But all subway expansion becomes a heck of a lot easier if the province owns the subway and LRT network. And we now have a precedence with Metrolinx ownning the LRT lines throughout the region. Metrolinx is even arguing with KWC about what percentage of fares collected on iON will be handed over....

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's not. GO services can be cut and we'd all be shit outta luck.



Having an MPP is nice, but the structure of the provincial government and the party system is such that individual MPPs/MPs are powerless to implement anything that party leadership does not endorse. Your MPP can 100% agree with you on an issue, but if the party leadership doesn't agree with it, that MPP is powerless to change it, and in most cases they won't even be afforded the opportunity to vote against it. Party leadership holds absolute power.

Federal and Provincial politics is all about towing the party line.

So, hypothetical situation where the Province wants to cut Finch West bus service by 50%: users of that bus wouldn't be able to prevent that, unless they could somehow convince the party leadership otherwise. Good luck with that.

Compare to the current situation, where they'd complain to a local Councillor, local councillor can bring it to Council and Council can reject it, despite opposition from the Mayor.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I never said the subway network had to be uploaded to build Yonge North. But all subway expansion becomes a heck of a lot easier if the province owns the subway and LRT network. And we now have a precedence with Metrolinx ownning the LRT lines throughout the region. Metrolinx is even arguing with KWC about what percentage of fares collected on iON will be handed over....

The Province already holds the power to unilaterally move forward with transit expansion with a stroke of a pen. What you propose doesn't make that procedure any easier for the Province.

The only thing your proposal does is make it significantly more difficult for affected players to air the criticism and have their voices heard. Making criticism more difficult is not something we should ever strive to do. Negotiation is good. It's democracy in action. It's one of the reasons why we have local councils; to prevent the massive provincial government, which isn't very well attuned to local and sub-local issues, from stepping on toes.

Quashing criticism is never how we should strive to get things done.

 

[kEiThZ]

I just don't like the idea of picking and choosing which parts of a network you want to assume control of, and leaving the other guy to pick up the tab for the rest of it. Uploading the whole TTC may actually be less expensive than just uploading the RT network, because of all of the employee splits that would need to go along with it. If someone spends 50% of their time doing planning work for the RT network and 50% of their time for the local network, do they stay a TTC employee or do they become a Metrolinx employee? Uploading the whole thing in 1 go allows for a wholesale merger.

I get your point. The problem is that it would be unusual for the province to provide local bus service in one jurisdiction (416) while insisting that municipalities in another (905) pay for it themselves. That's why I think if this happens, the TTC will be broken up. Each municipality will then be responsible for providing exactly the same type of service: feeder bus service. A provincial agency becomes responsible for medium and long haul. It's not like the subway would become part of GO. It would become another Metrolinx subsidiary like GO. Think of London Underground under the TfL umbrella.

I do agree with you though that uploading all of it would be ideal. But the only way I think that happens is if Metrolinx gets its own revenue tools. In that case, it won't be just the TTC being uploaded....

Confederation Line Phase 2 as far as I know is on track for a 2018 tender

Has there been firm commitments to a 2018 launch for Phase 2? Also, ion Phase 2 and Shift don't seem anywhere close to a 2018 tender unless I'm wrong....

Having an MPP is nice, but the structure of the provincial government and the party system is such that individual MPPs/MPs are powerless to implement anything that party leadership does not endorse.

Your City Councillor is just as ineffective if the rest of council or the transit commission disagrees with him/her.

So, hypothetical situation where the Province wants to cut Finch West bus service by 50%: users of that bus wouldn't be able to prevent that, unless they could somehow convince the party leadership otherwise. Good luck with that.

Compare to the current situation, where they'd complain to a local Councillor, local councillor can bring it to Council and Council can reject it, despite opposition from the Mayor.

We had a mayor that threatened to close the Sheppard Subway. How effective would local councillors have been if the rest of council had gone along with the mayor? How woulw this be any different than the GO scenario? The only difference in the politics of the situation here is that instead of local trade offs, you'll have provincial tradeoffs. Or more than likely, we'll end up with competent management where we don't have random 50% cuts of service. You'll have a less politicized transit system where decisions are made on ridership. Just look at GO for example. How politicised is GO transit compared to the TTC?

This is hardly novel by the way. Would you say than London has terrible transit because TfL manages several subsidaries (including London Underground) and controls local bus service across the region?

 

[mdrejhon]

Hang on, so you'd rather he stubbornly stick to a bad transit plan like Ford? The plan had merits. It's been revised to be a better plan. Where is the problem in this?

This.

Politics are frustrating, but things appear now finally going much more smoothly in transit initiatives than they did for a couple of decades.

 

[kEiThZ]

Making criticism more difficult is not something we should ever strive to do. Negotiation is good. It's democracy in action.

Post this in the Scarborough subway thread and see if people think it's a great idea....

It's democracy and negotiation that has given up the Scarborough subway, Smart Track and deferral of Sheppard East LRT. So if you're opposed to those, then putting transit under less politicized management should make sense.

Under your hypothetical scenario of a 50% cut to service on Finch West, at least if it were happening under Metrolinx, we could be reasonably assured that the service cut was based on ridership. Consider the flip side of your hypothetical scenario. If the local councillors wanted a 50% increase in service along Finch West, despite a lack of ridership justifying it, would you support a system where they could have enough say to do that?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We had a mayor that threatened to close the Sheppard Subway. How effective would local councillors have been if the rest of council had gone along with the mayor?

At the municipal level, the mayor doesn't really have power to unilaterally implement any policy. For the Mayor to close the Sheppard Subway, he'd need to bring the proposal, openly and democratically, to the TTC Board (made up of elected councillors and citizen representatives) or City Council. The proposal would then likely be killed at the TTC Board.

But even if it wasn't, you need to understand that City Council holds absolute power. If City Council doesn't like what the Mayor is doing, they just have vote against it, openly and democratically. And that would be the beginning and end of the proposal.

It must be emphasized that at the municipal level, nobody but Council has the power to unilaterally implement anything. The 45 elected members of Council wield absolute power.

Compare this to the provincial level, where if the premier and their cabinet wanted to close the Sheppard Subway, they just need to tell Metrolinx staff to shut it down. That would be the beginning and end of that process. The only recourse for citizens and local councils would be to try to convince local MPPs to attempt to convince party leadership to change the policy. Of course, when you're dealing with a massive province, party leadership tends to have a poor understanding of local issues, which is why we created the municipal level of government.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Post this in the Scarborough subway thread and see if people think it's a great idea....

The criticism of the Scarborough LRT and Subway is fine. That's democracy at work. We should never strive to suppress that.

 

[GenerationW]

Establish some kind of regional GTA transit authourity staffed by provincial and municipal officials (elected and non-elected) with the power to plan, prioritize and fund local and regional transit.

Problem solved.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Your City Councillor is just as ineffective if the rest of council or the transit commission disagrees with him/her.

That's nonsense. Unlike at the provincial and federal level, municipal councillors aren't under an implicit obligation to vote with their "party" or the mayor. If a Councillor disagrees with something, they can present a motion and debate it among their 44 council colleagues. If you ever watched City Council, you'd know that "breaking rank" with the mayor happens all the time.

And the TTC holds zero power over city council. I don't know where you got that idea from.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Problem solved.

What problem does that solve?

 

[kEiThZ]

Compare this to the provincial level, where if the premier and their cabinet wanted to close the Sheppard Subway, they just need to tell Metrolinx staff to shut it down.

The mayor and council could do the exact same thing tomorrow. The only difference is that we don't have political party labels on councillors.

That would be the beginning and end of that process. The only recourse for citizens and local councils would be to try to convince local MPPs to attempt to convince party leadership to change the policy.

We're not a one-party state (despite the Liberals being in power a while....). You don't have to "convince party leadership".

If your MPP doesn't deliver the goods, you vote him/her out. If his/her party shut down a subway line, they'd probably get booted. It's bizarre to argue that somehow there's huge difference in how democracy works at the provincial level.

Don't believe me? Have the Liberals propose suspension of GO service two stops past the 416 and watch what happens to MPPs in those ridings outside.