SmartTrack (Proposed)

[nfitz]

I've been researching transit in anticipation of a trip to Seattle, looking at the Link ($3 for a 22 km ride from the airport to downtown) and wondering how UPE got it so wrong ...

That's kind of apples and oranges isn't it? One is equivalent to the Eglinton Line, and the other is equivalent to an express train. It's about a 40-minute ride on that thing to the airport from Westlake - and it often only runs every 10 to 15 minutes. And it just crawls through the downtown tunnel, as it waits for buses (yes buses) to get out of the stations as it pulls in.

It's while parked in the tunnel waiting for those buses, that you ask yourself, how could Seattle get it so wrong ...

And then good luck finding the streetcar at Westlake - I don't think there's one iota of signage between the Link platform and the streetcar platform - so if you don't know which way you are facing when you walk out of the station, you are done.

BTW, you can't get a free transfer from the Link to the streetcar - or to the Monorail. There seems to be about half-a-dozen different transit agencies there ... well unless you get an ORCA card - which I haven't figured out yet.

 

[mdrejhon]

When I did the math on the 5-minute frequency demands at TTC prices, they'd need more than current 6-car subway trains.

One possible of many candidates is the Stadler KISS pictured in many Metrolinx artwork for RER. Those are six-coach bilevel low-floor EMU train sets.

I think double berthing of two Stadler KISS bilevel trains going in opposite direction at peak. You would have 12 coaches but six would go in opposite directions when they depart.

One possible concept: Station would be preloaded with trains (as today LSE/LSW) in moments before peak hour to allow 5min outgoing service without too much contention with incoming trains. During offpeak, you would run them as through service, say 10min frequency.

This 5-minute peak-only would be cheaper to achieve than setting up the USRC for continuous 5min headwyays in both directions.

 

[crs1026]

Five minute service not running both ways is terrible equipment utilization. Those outbound trainsets have to come back into town for another trip, at least. Preferably two return trips per peak period.

Plus, the preloading is only good for 20 minutes. After that, you have to reload another four trainsets. That's a whole lot of equipment moves. Might as well just feed the revenue moves through the depot close to the schedule.

If one could build the platforms out to 24+ carlengths, you could put switches in midway to create an overlapping "three for two" track layout. In effect, there are two outgoing platforms in each direction in a space that's three platforms wide. With a third train waiting to enter as one of the two platforms clears.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

That's kind of apples and oranges isn't it? One is equivalent to the Eglinton Line, and the other is equivalent to an express train. It's about a 40-minute ride on that thing to the airport from Westlake - and it often only runs every 10 to 15 minutes. And it just crawls through the downtown tunnel, as it waits for buses (yes buses) to get out of the stations as it pulls in.

And the hours seem to be horrible. I've been in Seattle twice since it opened and haven't been able to take it once because my flights take-off/land while the LRT is closed.

6am to midnight on weekends. Ugh. Unusable for available for a 7:30am departure or a 11:30pm arrival those days.

 

[crs1026]

BTW, you can't get a free transfer from the Link to the streetcar - or to the Monorail. There seems to be about half-a-dozen different transit agencies there ... well unless you get an ORCA card - which I haven't figured out yet.

Orca Card is great, it's the absence of fare integration that's surprising. You can use it on anything, and every time you use it, you are charged full fare. No transfers, within agencies and/or between them. Just keep it loaded, I guess.

I'm sitting here, staring at my Orca Card, wondering what I can do with it. Just like every tourist who came to Toronto since June 2015 and bought a Presto Card. I'm tempted to tap it onto a TTC terminal....just to see what happens......

- Paul

 

[the lemur]

That's kind of apples and oranges isn't it? One is equivalent to the Eglinton Line, and the other is equivalent to an express train. It's about a 40-minute ride on that thing to the airport from Westlake - and it often only runs every 10 to 15 minutes. And it just crawls through the downtown tunnel, as it waits for buses (yes buses) to get out of the stations as it pulls in.

It's while parked in the tunnel waiting for those buses, that you ask yourself, how could Seattle get it so wrong ...

And then good luck finding the streetcar at Westlake - I don't think there's one iota of signage between the Link platform and the streetcar platform - so if you don't know which way you are facing when you walk out of the station, you are done.

BTW, you can't get a free transfer from the Link to the streetcar - or to the Monorail. There seems to be about half-a-dozen different transit agencies there ... well unless you get an ORCA card - which I haven't figured out yet.

Every 10 to 15 minutes sounds okay to me, but I didn't know about sharing the tunnel. Not planning to transfer to the SLUS but might use it while there. Certainly thinking of getting the Orca card. We'll see how it goes.

 

[LNahid2000]

Every 10 to 15 minutes sounds okay to me, but I didn't know about sharing the tunnel. Not planning to transfer to the SLUS but might use it while there. Certainly thinking of getting the Orca card. We'll see how it goes.

I thought it was called the SLUT.

 

[Palma]

Having moved back from Ottawa, I find this attitude incredible. Ottawa has higher property taxes than Toronto. Is paying for 1/3 of their LRT program.

Only in the GTA is there an expectation that Queen's Park will pick up the entire tab. This is going to bite the Liberals in the rear eventually. There's already of a lot of consternation elsewhere about what a raw deal this is for the rest of the province.

In this particular case, Metrolinx is paying for RER as a regional suburban service. It won't do much for Toronto. Smart Track adds stops and frequencies that mostly serve Toronto (could even limit service to 416). And yet Toronto shouldn't pay for it? Talk about entitled.

And for the record, I'd gladly pay higher taxes to get better transit.

But again GO is paying for suburban riders, why can't they pay for passengers in Toronto near those rail lines. Its not about entitlement, its about fairness

 

[Palma]

Because 90% of riders will be Toronto residents?

Even though they would like to have a more frequent service, they still will be using this line at 10 min frequency.

and 95% of suburban riders use GO and the prov is paying for that, not individual communities

 

[Palma]

I don't care what concession we get, we're not getting 5 minute frequneices, all-stop service on this thing using mostly existing infrastucutre. It physically won't work, and will be too detrimental to other frequencies. The restrictions of rail scheduling, and the capacity constraints of Union Station, both in terms of pedestrian flows and rail capacity, won't allow for it.

The only way this will work is if ST is in it's own rail corridor, completely segregated from the other rail lines, like TTC's subways are. This would necessitate widening the rail corridors and building a second station under Union Station (you're not going to shoehorn this new service into the existing station). This will not be an affordable option.



Toronto won't be contributing $2.6 Billion to this. There isn't a realistic funding model to generate that money.

I guess I was under the impression, province was contributing 1/3, federal gov't was also contributing 1/3 and the last 1/3 came from Toronto. I was pretty sure thats how i remember it

 

[the lemur]

I thought it was called the SLUT.

One of the arguments against in the early days was that it was supposedly going to be called the South Lake Union Trolley, but that seems to be apocryphal.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I guess I was under the impression, province was contributing 1/3, federal gov't was also contributing 1/3 and the last 1/3 came from Toronto. I was pretty sure thats how i remember it

Understandable. That was Tory's campaign promise. But like many SmartTrack related campaign promises, a $2.6 Bn City contribution is virtually infesibale.

Municipalities don't have the tools available to raise that much money.

 

[crs1026]

So much has happened that I actually had to look it up to be sure:

Total - $8B figure cited by Tory, unsupported by detailed analysis. It was Tory wh suggested the 1/3 each contribution by federal and provincial funds

Federal - $2.6 B committed

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...au-pledges-smarttrack-and-go-train-funds.html

Provincial - has not committed funding, other than to count electrification and track construction attributable to RER as their contribution to ST

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-in-toronto-region-rail-plan/article24004380/


- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

But again GO is paying for suburban riders, why can't they pay for passengers in Toronto near those rail lines. Its not about entitlement, its about fairness

The province is paying for subways and LRTs in Toronto. I would presume this is why they weren't interested in suburban rail service for Toronto. It's unfortunate that they might think that way. But hardly unfair. Especially when you compare the deal that London and Ottawa are getting.....

 

[Catenary]

Orca Card is great, it's the absence of fare integration that's surprising. You can use it on anything, and every time you use it, you are charged full fare. No transfers, within agencies and/or between them. Just keep it loaded, I guess.

I'm sitting here, staring at my Orca Card, wondering what I can do with it. Just like every tourist who came to Toronto since June 2015 and bought a Presto Card. I'm tempted to tap it onto a TTC terminal....just to see what happens......

- Paul

I have a growing stack of transit cards here too. If they're capable of being ready by a new TTC/Ottawa PRESTO reader, it blinks yellow and the screen backlight comes on, but they don't throw an error. The same result as tapping a contactless credit card or an NFC phone.